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Chris F
04-08-2009, 01:14 AM
This state was the first to have civil unions and not they are the first to make it law in this fashion.


Vermont legalizes same-sex 'marriage' with veto override
Charlie Butts - OneNewsNow - 4/7/2009 10:35:00 AM

Updated 4/7/2009 2:15 PM



The way has been paved for Vermont homosexuals to legally "marry" -- another indication, says one Christian activist, of the current political climate in Washington, DC.

Vermont has become the fourth state to legalize homosexual marriage -- and the first to do so with a legislature's vote. The Legislature voted Tuesday to override Gov. Jim Douglas' veto of a bill allowing homosexuals to marry. The vote was 23-5 to override in the state Senate and 100-49 to override in the House. Under Vermont law, two-thirds of each chamber had to vote for override. The vote came nine years after Vermont adopted its first-in-the-nation civil unions law.

Matt Barber, director of cultural affairs for Liberty Counsel, poses this question: "How long can a nation founded on the laws of nature and nature's God expect to find favor in his eyes when we continue to mock God?"

Vermont's decision, he believes, sends waves throughout the country -- including the nation's capitol. "I believe that the purveyors of evil around the country feel emboldened right now with the current political climate in Washington, DC," Barber states, what with both the Oval Office and Congress inhabited by "people who are bent on thumbing their nose at God."

Barber believes states without constitutional amendments to protect marriage need to speed the process. In addition, he warns that if the Obama administration is successful in overturning the Defense of Marriage Act, even conservative states may have to recognize homosexual marriages legal in other jurisdictions.


Peter Sprigg of the Family Research Council closely monitored the vote. "It's particularly disappointing that there were at least three legislators who betrayed the institution of marriage by switching their vote," Sprigg laments. "Fifty-two had voted against this bill last week. That would have been enough to sustain the veto -- but only 49 voted against it [on Tuesday]." He suggests that Vermont voters may want to keep those individuals in mind when they come up for re-election.

Sprigg also points out this is the first time that any state has ever enacted same-sex marriage through any kind of democratic process. "All of the other states that currently have same-sex marriage -- Massachusetts, Connecticut, and soon to be Iowa -- have had it imposed upon them through judicial activism by their state supreme court," he observes.

Sprigg also notes that the Washington, DC, council has voted to recognize homosexual marriages in states where it is legal.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 02:12 AM
For those who don't like them, don't attend them.

Chris F
04-08-2009, 02:24 AM
For those who don't like them, don't attend them.

It is not the event it is the ramification of the bond. Already several churches have been sued and lost because they refused to hold gay marriages. Also Christians business owners would be forced to accept a lifestyle choice that goes against their beliefs which violates their constitutional rights, while marriage is not a right. SO your lack of the facts has no doubt lead to your short sighted point of view.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 02:44 AM
It is not the event it is the ramification of the bond. Already several churches have been sued and lost because they refused to hold gay marriages. Also Christians business owners would be forced to accept a lifestyle choice that goes against their beliefs which violates their constitutional rights, while marriage is not a right. SO your lack of the facts has no doubt lead to your short sighted point of view.

How will their marriage hurt you personally? Is it because you don't like it? If so, don't go. No one is saying you have to accept it, just like no one tells me that I have to believe in a God.

Christian business owners don't have to accept it either. They can choose not to accept it too. How do you figure it violates Christians constitutional rights if gays get married?

Can you point to some news of the lawsuits against these churches please. I did a cursory search and didn't find any in the U.S.A.

I believe that your shortsighted view is due to religious fanaticism.

Again, how will it hurt you personally?

EDIT:

Do you think discrimination is a good thing?

Chris F
04-08-2009, 03:24 AM
How will their marriage hurt you personally? Is it because you don't like it? If so, don't go. No one is saying you have to accept it, just like no one tells me that I have to believe in a God.I already explained how it affects me. Reread my post. It infringes on my right to religion by forcing me to accept via force of law. Since marriage i more then civil union it changes the laws. As a minister I could be sued for refusing to marry gays. It has already happened. Get your head out of the sand.

Christian business owners don't have to accept it either. They can choose not to accept it too. How do you figure it violates Christians constitutional rights if gays get married?Again I already answered this. A business owner would be forced to give insurance and such to gays even tho it violates their principals. This too has already happened in several states

Can you point to some news of the lawsuits against these churches please. I did a cursory search and didn't find any in the U.S.A.I will see if I cna get you a direct link. It is old (2008)so it may be archived

I believe that your shortsighted view is due to religious fanaticism. Read the constitution Buzzard Marriage is not a right. You must have learned civics from a football coach.

Again, how will it hurt you personally?Again I already showed you how.

EDIT:

Do you think discrimination is a good thing? No way. What constitutional rights are they being discriminated against? You are falling for propaganda and unfounded paranoia.

Answers above in red.

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 03:27 AM
For those who don't like them, don't attend them.
Im sorry but I don't want my children to think that is an acceptable way of life. Marriage is very sacred and should be kept as intended between man and wife. :wacko:

NateR
04-08-2009, 03:30 AM
What is the difference between a marriage and a civil union? I'm talking from a purely secular, legal standpoint. Why were civil unions simply not good enough for the homosexuals?

Do they believe that being allowed to marry is going to somehow make them more accepted by the average American? Honestly, I believe it's going to have the exact opposite effect.

Chris F
04-08-2009, 03:39 AM
Here is a cut and paste from another thread from a year or so ago. This lesbian couple won the case and the church camp sued back and from as far as I have seen their case has been ignored.

By Peter J. Smith

OCEAN GROVE, New Jersey - A New Jersey lesbian couple has filed a civil rights complaint against a Christian seaside retreat association that refused to facilitate their "civil union."

Harriet Bernstein and Luisa Paster filed the complaint June 19 with the state attorney general's office on the grounds of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation after the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association declined the use of their Boardwalk Pavilion for their civil union ceremony, planned for September.

Bernstein and Paster demanded "whatever relief is provided by law" including unspecified "compensatory damages for economic loss, humiliation, [and] mental pain."

New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation.

However the OGCMA has stated that it must adhere to the rules of the United Methodist Book of Discipline, which forbids homosexual civil unions from being performed in churches and other areas for worship.

"The facility that they requested is a facility we have used exclusively for our camp meeting mission and worship celebrations since 1869," Scott Hoffman, OGCMA's chief administrative officer told LifeSiteNews.com.

The Pavilion is routinely used for worship ceremonies and gospel concerts, and used to be available for weddings until recently, Hoffman said. "Right now we're waiting for a response from the attorney general's office as what to do next."

On top of that, the form Bernstein and Paster submitted in February would have also agreed to "indemnify and hold harmless" the OGCMA from claims arising from the use of the facility.

Although the OGCMA had 20 days to respond to the charges, Hoffman said his group "requested another 10 days so we would be able to fully and adequately prepare our response."

The group is considering all options, and contacted the Alliance Defense Fund for added legal expertise over its first amendment rights. Hoffman said his church group will attempt mediation with Bernstein and Paster to keep it out of the attorney general's office, but will not compromise.

"We are most definitively a religious organization, our mission statement is to provide a place for spiritual birth, growth and renewal in a Christian seaside setting," said chief administrative officer Scott Hoffman. "We don't think that by the way the rules are written now that churches are required by any stretch of the imagination to adhere to those policies, and we don't think we are either."

NateR
04-08-2009, 03:41 AM
Here is a cut and paste from another thread from a year or so ago. This lesbian couple won the case and the church camp sued back and from as far as I have seen their case has been ignored.

By Peter J. Smith

OCEAN GROVE, New Jersey - A New Jersey lesbian couple has filed a civil rights complaint against a Christian seaside retreat association that refused to facilitate their "civil union."

Harriet Bernstein and Luisa Paster filed the complaint June 19 with the state attorney general's office on the grounds of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation after the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association declined the use of their Boardwalk Pavilion for their civil union ceremony, planned for September.

Bernstein and Paster demanded "whatever relief is provided by law" including unspecified "compensatory damages for economic loss, humiliation, [and] mental pain."

New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation.

However the OGCMA has stated that it must adhere to the rules of the United Methodist Book of Discipline, which forbids homosexual civil unions from being performed in churches and other areas for worship.

"The facility that they requested is a facility we have used exclusively for our camp meeting mission and worship celebrations since 1869," Scott Hoffman, OGCMA's chief administrative officer told LifeSiteNews.com.

The Pavilion is routinely used for worship ceremonies and gospel concerts, and used to be available for weddings until recently, Hoffman said. "Right now we're waiting for a response from the attorney general's office as what to do next."

On top of that, the form Bernstein and Paster submitted in February would have also agreed to "indemnify and hold harmless" the OGCMA from claims arising from the use of the facility.

Although the OGCMA had 20 days to respond to the charges, Hoffman said his group "requested another 10 days so we would be able to fully and adequately prepare our response."

The group is considering all options, and contacted the Alliance Defense Fund for added legal expertise over its first amendment rights. Hoffman said his church group will attempt mediation with Bernstein and Paster to keep it out of the attorney general's office, but will not compromise.

"We are most definitively a religious organization, our mission statement is to provide a place for spiritual birth, growth and renewal in a Christian seaside setting," said chief administrative officer Scott Hoffman. "We don't think that by the way the rules are written now that churches are required by any stretch of the imagination to adhere to those policies, and we don't think we are either."

This whole gay marriage thing is really just another way for Satan to destroy the Church in America.

Chris F
04-08-2009, 03:46 AM
seems every week there is another story. Like you said earlier, why won't they stick to domestic partnerships.

Vizion
04-08-2009, 03:49 AM
Im sorry but I don't want my children to think that is an acceptable way of life. Marriage is very sacred and should be kept as intended between man and wife. :wacko:Good point. Guys like Buzzard keep asking us "how does it hurt you?" Easy to say when you favor such a thing.

However, keeping our children morally upright before God is our top priority. Gay marriage threatens the traditional family structure...so yea, that's why it hurts us personally.

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 03:52 AM
What really sucks also is when you don't agree with all these shenanigans your accused of discriminating others and being a mean person. I love humans all of em gay, straight, bi...So far within the last 2 weeks I have been called a racist, Republican, and snob..LOL.. None of those define me, but I think that our children need to have morals and beliefs instilled in them. :huh:

Neezar
04-08-2009, 03:56 AM
What really sucks also is when you don't agree with all these shenanigans your accused of discriminating others and being a mean person. I love humans all of em gay, straight, bi...So far within the last 2 weeks I have been called a racist, Republican, and snob..LOL.. None of those define me, but I think that our children need to have morals and beliefs instilled in them. :huh:

You are doing great then! Keep up the good work. :cool:



:laugh:

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 03:57 AM
You are doing great then! Keep up the good work. :cool:



:laugh:
:wink:

Neezar
04-08-2009, 04:12 AM
It is refreshing to have someone just lay the truth about how they feel out there and leave it at that. It is great without the same old song and dance of 'your way of thinking sucks' or 'you should agree with me', blah, blah, blah.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:21 AM
I already explained how it affects me. Reread my post. It infringes on my right to religion by forcing me to accept via force of law. Since marriage i more then civil union it changes the laws. As a minister I could be sued for refusing to marry gays. It has already happened. Get your head out of the sand.

Exactly what section and article of the CONUS are you saying is violated if gays get married? Seriously, I would like to hear the specific parts and have a chance at a rebuttal, and why you think that. It doesn't infringe on your right to religion, as you still get to practice your religion, and it doesn't force you to accept it. As a minister, you could also be sued for refusing a service to an interracial couple. Do you have a problem with that too?

A business owner would be forced to give insurance and such to gays even tho it violates their principals. This too has already happened in several states

As a business owner you could also be sued if you refused to give insurance to an employee who is a single gay person if you discriminated against that person based on sexual orientation too, so I don't really think that you have a case on this part.

What constitutional rights are they being discriminated against?

"The marriage ban works a deep and scarring hardship on a very real segment of the community for no rational reason. The absence of any reasonable relationship between, on the one hand, an absolute disqualification of same-sex couples who wish to enter into civil marriage and, on the other, protection of public health, safety, or general welfare, suggests that the marriage restriction is rooted in persistent prejudices against persons who are (or who are believed to be) homosexual. "The Constitution cannot control such prejudices but neither can it tolerate them. Private biases may be outside the reach of the law, but the law cannot, directly or indirectly, give them effect." Limiting the protections, benefits, and obligations of civil marriage to opposite-sex couples violates the basic premises of individual liberty and equality under law protected by the Massachusetts Constitution...."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/Goodridge.html

Granted, this is from Hillary GOODRIDGE & others vs. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH & another.
SJC-08860
Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, but I think that it also will or should hold ground in every other state.

In addition, it violates the provision in the DOI of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The phrase "pursuit of happiness" appeared in the 1967 U.S. Supreme Court case, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)[3], which focused on an anti-miscegenation statute. Chief Justice Warren wrote: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

The phrase was also used in Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390 (1923)[4], which is seen as the seminal case interpreting the "liberty" interest of the Due Process clause of the fourteenth amendment as guaranteeing, among other things, a right to the pursuit of happiness, and, consequently, a right to privacy.

From the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_happiness If you find the wikipedia source to be incorrect, please let me know.

Hughes_GOAT
04-08-2009, 04:22 AM
It is refreshing to have someone just lay the truth about how they feel out there and leave it at that. It is great without the same old song and dance of 'your way of thinking sucks' or 'you should agree with me', blah, blah, blah.

speak for yourself :stirthepot:

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:28 AM
Exactly what section and article of the CONUS are you saying is violated if gays get married? Seriously, I would like to hear the specific parts and have a chance at a rebuttal, and why you think that. It doesn't infringe on your right to religion, as you still get to practice your religion, and it doesn't force you to accept it. As a minister, you could also be sued for refusing a service to an interracial couple. Do you have a problem with that too?



As a business owner you could also be sued if you refused to give insurance to an employee who is a single gay person if you discriminated against that person based on sexual orientation too, so I don't really think that you have a case on this part.



"The marriage ban works a deep and scarring hardship on a very real segment of the community for no rational reason. The absence of any reasonable relationship between, on the one hand, an absolute disqualification of same-sex couples who wish to enter into civil marriage and, on the other, protection of public health, safety, or general welfare, suggests that the marriage restriction is rooted in persistent prejudices against persons who are (or who are believed to be) homosexual. "The Constitution cannot control such prejudices but neither can it tolerate them. Private biases may be outside the reach of the law, but the law cannot, directly or indirectly, give them effect." Limiting the protections, benefits, and obligations of civil marriage to opposite-sex couples violates the basic premises of individual liberty and equality under law protected by the Massachusetts Constitution...."

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/Goodridge.html

Granted, this is from , but I think that it also will or should hold ground in every other state.

In addition, it violates the provision in the DOI of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.



From the wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life,_liberty_and_the_pursuit_of_happiness If you find the wikipedia source to be incorrect, please let me know.

So exactly what were civil unions NOT providing that gays have decided that they want marriage instead?

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:29 AM
Here is a cut and paste from another thread from a year or so ago. This lesbian couple won the case and the church camp sued back and from as far as I have seen their case has been ignored.

By Peter J. Smith

OCEAN GROVE, New Jersey - A New Jersey lesbian couple has filed a civil rights complaint against a Christian seaside retreat association that refused to facilitate their "civil union."

Harriet Bernstein and Luisa Paster filed the complaint June 19 with the state attorney general's office on the grounds of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation after the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association declined the use of their Boardwalk Pavilion for their civil union ceremony, planned for September.

Bernstein and Paster demanded "whatever relief is provided by law" including unspecified "compensatory damages for economic loss, humiliation, [and] mental pain."

New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation.

However the OGCMA has stated that it must adhere to the rules of the United Methodist Book of Discipline, which forbids homosexual civil unions from being performed in churches and other areas for worship.

"The facility that they requested is a facility we have used exclusively for our camp meeting mission and worship celebrations since 1869," Scott Hoffman, OGCMA's chief administrative officer told LifeSiteNews.com.

The Pavilion is routinely used for worship ceremonies and gospel concerts, and used to be available for weddings until recently, Hoffman said. "Right now we're waiting for a response from the attorney general's office as what to do next."

On top of that, the form Bernstein and Paster submitted in February would have also agreed to "indemnify and hold harmless" the OGCMA from claims arising from the use of the facility.

Although the OGCMA had 20 days to respond to the charges, Hoffman said his group "requested another 10 days so we would be able to fully and adequately prepare our response."

The group is considering all options, and contacted the Alliance Defense Fund for added legal expertise over its first amendment rights. Hoffman said his church group will attempt mediation with Bernstein and Paster to keep it out of the attorney general's office, but will not compromise.

"We are most definitively a religious organization, our mission statement is to provide a place for spiritual birth, growth and renewal in a Christian seaside setting," said chief administrative officer Scott Hoffman. "We don't think that by the way the rules are written now that churches are required by any stretch of the imagination to adhere to those policies, and we don't think we are either."

Thanks for the information.

In regard to this part New Jersey's anti-discrimination laws currently forbid those who "offer goods, services, and facilities to the general public" from "directly or indirectly denying or withholding any accommodation, service, benefit, or privilege to an individual" on the basis of sexual orientation.

However the OGCMA has stated that it must adhere to the rules of the United Methodist Book of Discipline, which forbids homosexual civil unions from being performed in churches and other areas for worship.

Do you believe that a churches laws should take precedence over the laws of the U.S.A.? I don't. If so, then Sharia Law should be allowed for any and all Muslims who wish it to be enforced when done in their own temples and mosques.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:32 AM
Im sorry but I don't want my children to think that is an acceptable way of life. Marriage is very sacred and should be kept as intended between man and wife. :wacko:

Your children would still be allowed to not think it is an acceptable way of life, it's up to them. What if you child was gay and wanted to be married to his/her partner? How would you tell them that you want to deny them the opportunity to be in a mutually exclusive bond of marriage?

Chris F
04-08-2009, 04:33 AM
Thanks for the information.

In regard to this part

Do you believe that a churches laws should take precedence over the laws of the U.S.A.? I don't. If so, then Sharia Law should be allowed for any and all Muslims who wish it to be enforced when done in their own temples and mosques.


1) Sexual orientation is not federally protected right and thnaks to at will employment a business should be sued for choosing who they want employed in their business.

2) The Constitution is clear congress can make NO LAW infringing on the right to worship. SO you need a civic lesson sir.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:35 AM
What is the difference between a marriage and a civil union? I'm talking from a purely secular, legal standpoint. Why were civil unions simply not good enough for the homosexuals?

Do they believe that being allowed to marry is going to somehow make them more accepted by the average American? Honestly, I believe it's going to have the exact opposite effect.

Why wasn't riding in the back of the bus good enough for Rosa Parks?

I don't really think most gays give a darn whether or not you really accept them. I could be wrong though on this. You really wouldn't know if they were legally married or not unless you asked every single one of them. If they were to invite you to their wedding, you could decline the invitation.

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:40 AM
Why wasn't riding in the back of the bus good enough for Rosa Parks?

I don't really think most gays give a darn whether or not you really accept them. I could be wrong though on this. You really wouldn't know if they were legally married or not unless you asked every single one of them. If they were to invite you to their wedding, you could decline the invitation.

I'm just asking what the difference is and we've already covered why the Gay Rights movement has absolutely nothing in common with the Civil Rights movement. In fact, you do a great disservice to the memories of those people who fought and in some cases gave their lives for Civil Rights, back in the 50s and 60s, when you compare them to sexual deviants and perverts.

So, what is the difference between a civil union and a marriage? If you don't know, then just say that you don't know. Don't try to deflect the question.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:40 AM
Good point. Guys like Buzzard keep asking us "how does it hurt you?" Easy to say when you favor such a thing.

However, keeping our children morally upright before God is our top priority. Gay marriage threatens the traditional family structure...so yea, that's why it hurts us personally.

How does it hurt you physically? financially? Will you lose money? your job? your husband/wife? How does it effect your own marriage? Are you not secure enough in your own marriage that you would let a homosexual marriage half way across the country interfere with your own? You can still encourage your children in the "traditional" ways. Gay marriage will only threaten it if you let it.

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:41 AM
1) Sexual orientation is not federally protected right and thnaks to at will employment a business should be sued for choosing who they want employed in their business.

2) The Constitution is clear congress can make NO LAW infringing on the right to worship. SO you need a civic lesson sir.

QFT = quoted for truth.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:43 AM
What really sucks also is when you don't agree with all these shenanigans your accused of discriminating others and being a mean person. I love humans all of em gay, straight, bi...So far within the last 2 weeks I have been called a racist, Republican, and snob..LOL.. None of those define me, but I think that our children need to have morals and beliefs instilled in them. :huh:

Perhaps you don't think it defines you, but your actions can. I'm not saying that you are any of them, but your actions can define you.

I've been accused of being an honest non-violent person. My actions define me in this regard.

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:45 AM
Gay marriage will only threaten it if you let it.

That's a load of bull. We know that public schools are being turned into left-wing liberal brainwashing factories. No matter what parents try to teach their kids, those same kids are going to be indoctrinated into accepting the gay lifestyle as "normal" while they attend public school. The only ways to keep children from this brainwashing would be to either homeschool or send them to private schools, but not ever family can afford to do either one of those.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:47 AM
1) Sexual orientation is not federally protected right and thnaks to at will employment a business should be sued for choosing who they want employed in their business.

2) The Constitution is clear congress can make NO LAW infringing on the right to worship. SO you need a civic lesson sir.

How is allowing gay marriage infringing on YOUR right to worship? Will you still be allowed to worship? Yes. Can you still pray? Yes. Can you discriminate? No. Aw, that's too bad on the last one.

It seems like you sir need the civics lesson, and perhaps a lesson on compassion, brotherhood, love, respect and tolerance for those that are different from you.

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:50 AM
How is allowing gay marriage infringing on YOUR right to worship? Will you still be allowed to worship? Yes. Can you still pray? Yes. Can you discriminate? No. Aw, that's too bad on the last one.

It seems like you sir need the civics lesson, and perhaps a lesson on compassion, brotherhood, love, respect and tolerance for those that are different from you.

It's an attack on the church itself. Their goal is to shut down any church that doesn't openly embrace homosexuality, which is an attack on all of our religious rights.

Moose
04-08-2009, 04:54 AM
It's an attack on the church itself. Their goal is to shut down any church that doesn't openly embrace homosexuality, which is an attack on all of our religious rights.

My goal is to keep 'em separate. I don't want a state-mandated sermon, just like I don't want a Bible tract telling me how to vote.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 04:59 AM
I'm just asking what the difference is and we've already covered why the Gay Rights movement has absolutely nothing in common with the Civil Rights movement. In fact, you do a great disservice to the memories of those people who fought and in some cases gave their lives for Civil Rights, back in the 50s and 60s, when you compare them to sexual deviants and perverts.


Ah, so now the name calling comes out against homosexuals. I wondered how long it would take for that to arise. You don't think that both movements concern the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Read the opinion of the black lesbian to see if she feels that they compare at all. Her response was that which ever is happening at that moment matters.

So, what is the difference between a civil union and a marriage? If you don't know, then just say that you don't know. Don't try to deflect the question.

Are you asking because you don't know? You do know that there are different laws regarding each of them don't you and the benefits that go with them? Look it up if you want the specific details. Without looking it up I couldn't give you specifics, though with the information available at my fingertips it's not that hard to get answers.

NateR
04-08-2009, 05:04 AM
Ah, so now the name calling comes out against homosexuals. I wondered how long it would take for that to arise. You don't think that both movements concern the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Read the opinion of the black lesbian to see if she feels that they compare at all. Her response was that which ever is happening at that moment matters.

Sexual deviant and pervert is not intended to be name calling. Just telling the truth about their unnatural behavior. How old is this "black lesbian" and did she actually live during the segregation days? If not, then her opinions are irrelevant.

Are you asking because you don't know? You do know that there are different laws regarding each of them don't you and the benefits that go with them? Look it up if you want the specific details. Without looking it up I couldn't give you specifics, though with the information available at my fingertips it's not that hard to get answers.

I actually don't know and thought that someone might have the information available and be willing to post it. I can do the research myself if necessary. From what I understand, it's all about tax breaks, which means that all the homosexuals care about is money, not love.

Bonnie
04-08-2009, 05:18 AM
That's a load of bull. We know that public schools are being turned into left-wing liberal brainwashing factories. No matter what parents try to teach their kids, those same kids are going to be indoctrinated into accepting the gay lifestyle as "normal" while they attend public school. The only ways to keep children from this brainwashing would be to either homeschool or send them to private schools, but not ever family can afford to do either one of those.

Exactly! :angry:

What else are books like "My Two Mommies" supposed to do but "teach" children that this is "normal" too; it's just an alternative lifestyle.

The gay movement isn't satisfied with "civil unions" because they want to force this **** down our throats and won't be happy until we're choking on it. They want to use the whole "God loves everybody" to exonerate themselves while they do the very thing God says is a sin.

This is all a part of the devil's work, not God's, and man putting himself and his sinful desires/deeds in place of what God has told us is right and good. They're basically waving their sins in front of God's face saying, "Screw you, I don't like your rules so I'm making my own!"

Civilizations have been destroyed and fallen by the wayside before due to man's immorality and the lack of law and order. This is all a part of it.

God gave us his one and only son and we spit on Him! :cry:

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 05:20 AM
Sexual deviant and pervert is not intended to be name calling. Just telling the truth about their unnatural behavior. How old is this "black lesbian" and did she actually live during the segregation days? If not, then her opinions are irrelevant.

I can't find the link to the lady I spoke of atm.

I actually don't know and thought that someone might have the information available and be willing to post it. I can do the research myself if necessary. From what I understand, it's all about tax breaks, which means that all the homosexuals care about is money, not love.

I actually had to look it up to get the exact differences. It has more to do with it than money, though there are financial benefits that aren't allowed in civil unions. Here is a link with a small bit of info. I've been typing too much tonight and eyes are getting blurry from all of this.

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 05:43 AM
Exactly! :angry:

What else are books like "My Two Mommies" supposed to do but "teach" children that this is "normal" too; it's just an alternative lifestyle.

The gay movement isn't satisfied with "civil unions" because they want to force this **** down our throats and won't be happy until we're choking on it. They want to use the whole "God loves everybody" to exonerate themselves while they do the very thing God says is a sin.

This is all a part of the devil's work, not God's, and man putting himself and his sinful desires/deeds in place of what God has told us is right and good. They're basically waving their sins in front of God's face saying, "Screw you, I don't like your rules so I'm making my own!"

Civilizations have been destroyed and fallen by the wayside before due to man's immorality and the lack of law and order. This is all a part of it.

God gave us his one and only son and we spit on Him! :cry:

My last reply of the night. What if these homosexuals that wish to be married don't believe in God? Aren't we a nation free to worship any God we choose or no one at all if we don't believe? A gay marriage would have no bearing on my marriage or life. It doesn't cause me any loss of sleep, income, health or happiness. Does it cause any of this for you?

How are two people getting married 1000 miles away from you forcing this &$%# down your throat? Aren't you forcing your religious views down their throat in denying them the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because of your religious views? They aren't asking you to witness their marriage, just like you probably didn't invite them to yours.

If you don't agree with the lifestyle, how about talking to your kids? The idea of schooling is to educate people. Unfortunately for you, there are gay people in the world, and kids will find out about them one way or another. If you wish to teach your kids that it is a wrong lifestyle, you are free to do it and free to offer your opinions to counter what you believe to be wrong.

I'd almost be willing to bet that you and/or your friends have practiced some morally wrong, deviant sexual practices. Are you going to deny them the right to get married? If they are married and practice these perverted, sexually deviant practices, should their marriages be dissolved and their rights that go with them be too?

I don't believe in God, and am capable of making arguments without bringing religion into it. If others could counter my arguments without bringing religion into it, I might be more open in trying to understand your views. When you bring religion and God into it, I don't find it to be a reasonable argument to those who don't believe. Do you believe in arguments brought up my those of other religions who use their religious views and God to bolster their opinions, or do you possibly dismiss them because they don't fit into your world view and aren't of your religious beliefs?

NateR
04-08-2009, 05:46 AM
I actually had to look it up to get the exact differences. It has more to do with it than money, though there are financial benefits that aren't allowed in civil unions. Here is a link with a small bit of info. I've been typing too much tonight and eyes are getting blurry from all of this.

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html

Still looks like a lot of financial benefits and not much more. Although I do believe there is a deeper yearning in their lives. EVERY homosexual knows that they are living an unnatural and empty lifestyle and they seek to find happiness without letting go of their perversion. Which is impossible. They got homosexuality accepted among large (mostly liberal) segments of the population and that wasn't enough. They got homosexual couples plastered all over primetime television shows and that didn't make them happy. Now they assume it's because they can't get married. Well that's not going to bring them happiness either, so I just wonder what's next once they get control of marriage and find that it's not making their lives better?

NateR
04-08-2009, 05:50 AM
My last reply of the night. What if these homosexuals that wish to be married don't believe in God? Aren't we a nation free to worship any God we choose or no one at all if we don't believe? A gay marriage would have no bearing on my marriage or life. It doesn't cause me any loss of sleep, income, health or happiness. Does it cause any of this for you?

How are two people getting married 1000 miles away from you forcing this &$%# down your throat? Aren't you forcing your religious views down their throat in denying them the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because of your religious views? They aren't asking you to witness their marriage, just like you probably didn't invite them to yours.

If you don't agree with the lifestyle, how about talking to your kids? The idea of schooling is to educate people. Unfortunately for you, there are gay people in the world, and kids will find out about them one way or another. If you wish to teach your kids that it is a wrong lifestyle, you are free to do it and free to offer your opinions to counter what you believe to be wrong.

I'd almost be willing to bet that you and/or your friends have practiced some morally wrong, deviant sexual practices. Are you going to deny them the right to get married? If they are married and practice these perverted, sexually deviant practices, should their marriages be dissolved and their rights that go with them be too?

I don't believe in God, and am capable of making arguments without bringing religion into it. If others could counter my arguments without bringing religion into it, I might be more open in trying to understand your views. When you bring religion and God into it, I don't find it to be a reasonable argument to those who don't believe. Do you believe in arguments brought up my those of other religions who use their religious views and God to bolster their opinions, or do you possibly dismiss them because they don't fit into your world view and aren't of your religious beliefs?

Well, as George Washington said, if you don't believe in religion or morality, then you cannot claim to be a patriot of the United States, because you are not acting in this Christian nation's best interests.

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 06:00 AM
Your children would still be allowed to not think it is an acceptable way of life, it's up to them. What if you child was gay and wanted to be married to his/her partner? How would you tell them that you want to deny them the opportunity to be in a mutually exclusive bond of marriage?
Unfortunately if either one of my children were gay and wanted to marry his/her partner I would not participate in that function. Would I still love my child? Yes, however I am not a fake person and I would find it hard to engage in that unity. Just like if they were a drug addict I wouldnt hand them some money to get high in the name of love?!!

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 06:02 AM
Ah, so now the name calling comes out against homosexuals. I wondered how long it would take for that to arise. You don't think that both movements concern the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Read the opinion of the black lesbian to see if she feels that they compare at all. Her response was that which ever is happening at that moment matters.



Are you asking because you don't know? You do know that there are different laws regarding each of them don't you and the benefits that go with them? Look it up if you want the specific details. Without looking it up I couldn't give you specifics, though with the information available at my fingertips it's not that hard to get answers.
Ok so where is Nathan name calling? As for the black lesbian. If you choose to live that lifestyle your asking for it. If I sleep around the town I will be deemed a whore right? And for her bringing up race get over it your black!

Bonnie
04-08-2009, 06:04 AM
It's quite simple, Buzzard. I do BELIEVE in GOD and you do not (that is what you said). So, I guess we really can't have a debate about gay unions and keep God (I say God, not religion) out of it. :wink:

You seem to just want to go round and round the mulberry bush kind of like the cute hamster who's running and running on his wheel but never gets anywhere.

You've stated your position and why and others who feel differently have stated theirs and why.

No one is going to change their minds regarding their views on this so...

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 06:04 AM
Perhaps you don't think it defines you, but your actions can. I'm not saying that you are any of them, but your actions can define you.

I've been accused of being an honest non-violent person. My actions define me in this regard.
Honey I am always two things CLASSY and SASSY..I can give 2 hoots about anyones opinion. God made me hard to handle and I like it that way....:)

Hughes_GOAT
04-08-2009, 06:08 AM
Honey I am always two things CLASSY and SASSY..I can give 2 hoots about anyones opinion. God made me hard to handle and I like it that way....:)

that's cool cause those 2 things rhyme...what if you were CLASSY and CARING? doesn't have the same effect.

Hughes_GOAT
04-08-2009, 06:10 AM
and for the record, you look like Jasmine Byrne.....Melissa

(don't look her up) :laugh:

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 06:15 AM
and for the record, you look like Jasmine Byrne.....Melissa

(don't look her up) :laugh:
LOL...Perv!! hehe!!!:wink:

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:17 AM
Well, as George Washington said, if you don't believe in religion or morality, then you cannot claim to be a patriot of the United States, because you are not acting in this Christian nation's best interests.

I never stated that I didn't believe in morality. In fact, I probably live a more moral lifestyle than most of the Christians I know.

My bad, I've made another reply, probably not the last of the night. Not ready to sleep as yet though.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:18 AM
Unfortunately if either one of my children were gay and wanted to marry his/her partner I would not participate in that function. Would I still love my child? Yes, however I am not a fake person and I would find it hard to engage in that unity. Just like if they were a drug addict I wouldnt hand them some money to get high in the name of love?!!


Just don't hand them any lube.

Miss Foxy
04-08-2009, 06:18 AM
Just don't hand them any lube.
Goodnight Buzzard!! :scared0015:

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:24 AM
It's quite simple, Buzzard. I do BELIEVE in GOD and you do not (that is what you said). So, I guess we really can't have a debate about gay unions and keep God (I say God, not religion) out of it. :wink:

You seem to just want to go round and round the mulberry bush kind of like the cute hamster who's running and running on his wheel but never gets anywhere.

You've stated your position and why and others who feel differently have stated theirs and why.

No one is going to change their minds regarding their views on this so...

That's all well and good. No one is trying to deny you the right to get married because of their religious beliefs. If you can't make an argument stand without using God or religion, then you have no right to deny those that don't believe because of your religious views. You are discriminating against them because of their sexual orientation, and it's quite ugly.

So, do you or your friends practice and of those immoral acts, and are you willing to dissolve your marriage if you do? It is just about immoral acts isn't it?

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:25 AM
Goodnight Buzzard!! :scared0015:

Good night Melissa, thank you for the conversation and sorry for the crass joke.

Hughes_GOAT
04-08-2009, 06:37 AM
LOL...Perv!! hehe!!!:wink:

you looked her up :laugh:

NateR
04-08-2009, 07:16 AM
So, do you or your friends practice and of those immoral acts, and are you willing to dissolve your marriage if you do? It is just about immoral acts isn't it?

That question doesn't even make any sense. What point are you trying to make exactly? :blink:

You're coming off like the most intolerant person in this entire discussion. Do you go to gay websites and defend Christians for their right to practice their own beliefs? If not then why are you attacking Christians over an issue that doesn't even concern you? You've already said that gay marriage doesn't affect you one way or the other, so why do you care and why are you so intent on attacking the Christians on this board for our beliefs?

Neezar
04-08-2009, 01:30 PM
I don't believe in God, and am capable of making arguments without bringing religion into it. If others could counter my arguments without bringing religion into it, I might be more open in trying to understand your views. When you bring religion and God into it, I don't find it to be a reasonable argument to those who don't believe. Do you believe in arguments brought up my those of other religions who use their religious views and God to bolster their opinions, or do you possibly dismiss them because they don't fit into your world view and aren't of your religious beliefs?

EXACTLY! Tell that to the gays! They obviously don't chose to worship God or practice his teachings so why demand to have a religious ceremony called marriage in His name. The gays should be fighting for the rights/benefits that they want to be included for civil unions if that is their purpose....instead of fighting for the right to a religious ceremony that they don't believe in.

Bonnie
04-08-2009, 04:35 PM
EXACTLY! Tell that to the gays! They obviously don't chose to worship God or practice his teachings so why demand to have a religious ceremony called marriage in His name. The gays should be fighting for the rights/benefits that they want to be included for civil unions if that is their purpose....instead of fighting for the right to a religious ceremony that they don't believe in.

Ahhhhh...a voice of logic and sense! :wub:




(no homo) :laugh:

NateR
04-08-2009, 04:36 PM
EXACTLY! Tell that to the gays! They obviously don't chose to worship God or practice his teachings so why demand to have a religious ceremony called marriage in His name. The gays should be fighting for the rights/benefits that they want to be included for civil unions if that is their purpose....instead of fighting for the right to a religious ceremony that they don't believe in.

Excellent point.

Even if religion is that important to them, trying to use the government to force themselves into churches is not going to get them the acceptance that they crave. It's going to have the opposite effect.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:35 PM
That question doesn't even make any sense. What point are you trying to make exactly? :blink:

You're coming off like the most intolerant person in this entire discussion. Do you go to gay websites and defend Christians for their right to practice their own beliefs? If not then why are you attacking Christians over an issue that doesn't even concern you? You've already said that gay marriage doesn't affect you one way or the other, so why do you care and why are you so intent on attacking the Christians on this board for our beliefs?

It does make sense, only you can't comprehend the point being made. You believe that gays have immoral sex, and yet have no problems with heterosexuals having immoral sex, but want to keep gays from being married because of it.

How am I denying you the right to practice your beliefs? You can still pray, worship, go to church, have bible study, say grace. You are upset because you won't be able to deny someone to get married. Why are you opposed to them getting married in a non-religious setting?

I'm discussing something in a political forum. Notice how I haven't said one thing about it in the Christianity section. I have made 1 (one) post in the Christianity section showing Tyburn that there is Devine music out there.

How am I attacking what you believe? I am not trying to deny you from worship, church going, praying, bible study or anything of the sort. I am trying to deny you the right to discriminate and deny others the right to pursue their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I am not attacking any Christians on this board. I am attacking a political denial of rights based upon religious reasons. I have never once tried to deny you from attending church or to practice your faith. How will allowing gays to marry hurt your marriage?

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:36 PM
EXACTLY! Tell that to the gays! They obviously don't chose to worship God or practice his teachings so why demand to have a religious ceremony called marriage in His name. The gays should be fighting for the rights/benefits that they want to be included for civil unions if that is their purpose....instead of fighting for the right to a religious ceremony that they don't believe in.

So you are ok then with them getting married in a non-religious ceremony?

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 06:37 PM
Excellent point.

Even if religion is that important to them, trying to use the government to force themselves into churches is not going to get them the acceptance that they crave. It's going to have the opposite effect.

I don't believe that they are fighting for acceptance but rather for the right to get married and the protections of their union that marriage will allow them.

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 09:12 PM
For those who don't like them, don't attend them.
It hurts people because it sets a bad example for them to follow.

Its hard enough for the non-christian to know what is right and wrong as it is.

No wonder you dont care. Is that another value you carry "if it doesnt effect or harm me, I dont care" ?? Dont you care for the individuals and what it might do to them :huh:

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 09:16 PM
I'm just asking what the difference is and we've already covered why the Gay Rights movement has absolutely nothing in common with the Civil Rights movement. In fact, you do a great disservice to the memories of those people who fought and in some cases gave their lives for Civil Rights, back in the 50s and 60s, when you compare them to sexual deviants and perverts.

So, what is the difference between a civil union and a marriage? If you don't know, then just say that you don't know. Don't try to deflect the question.
He cant.

He cant just aswer the simple Questions.
He cant just say how he knows the difference between right and wrong, he cant just say why the need for marriage when Civil partnership is a religious-less marriage

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 09:18 PM
I actually had to look it up to get the exact differences. It has more to do with it than money, though there are financial benefits that aren't allowed in civil unions. Here is a link with a small bit of info. I've been typing too much tonight and eyes are getting blurry from all of this.

http://www.factcheck.org/what_is_a_civil_union.html
does us all a favour and give it a rest then :rolleyes:

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 09:19 PM
Well, as George Washington said, if you don't believe in religion or morality, then you cannot claim to be a patriot of the United States, because you are not acting in this Christian nation's best interests.
:laugh: I tried to tell him that aswell in another thread...but he couldnt grasp the point :unsure-1:

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 09:20 PM
I never stated that I didn't believe in morality. In fact, I probably live a more moral lifestyle than most of the Christians I know.

Then answer What you base your morality on...since its only been asked of you in almost every single thread you've ever posted in.

NateR
04-08-2009, 09:39 PM
and yet have no problems with heterosexuals having immoral sex,

When did I say that? :blink:

Immorality in the church is a big problem, but I can guarantee you that the solution is not to allow MORE immorality in the church.

I've got another question (that you'll probably deflect or ignore :laugh: ), what about the Mormons? They're religion tells them that it's okay for a husband to have multiple wives. So is it wrong for the government to ban their definition of marriage as well?

County Mike
04-08-2009, 09:45 PM
When did I say that? :blink:

Immorality in the church is a big problem, but I can guarantee you that the solution is not to allow MORE immorality in the church.

I've got another question (that you'll probably deflect or ignore :laugh: ), what about the Mormons? They're religion tells them that it's okay for a husband to have multiple wives. So is it wrong for the government to ban their definition of marriage as well?

Yes. They should be allowed to marry multiple women, as long as the women are willing participants and of legal age.

Hughes_GOAT
04-08-2009, 10:03 PM
Yes. They should be allowed to marry multiple women, as long as the women are willing participants and of legal age.

and hot

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 10:30 PM
It hurts people because it sets a bad example for them to follow.

Its hard enough for the non-christian to know what is right and wrong as it is.

No wonder you dont care. Is that another value you carry "if it doesnt effect or harm me, I dont care" ?? Dont you care for the individuals and what it might do to them :huh:

It's only hard to know what's right and wrong for non-christians in your closed mind Tyburn. You seem to think that only Christians have a lock on morality, yet you yourself have indulged in what you say are immoral acts that I have not, and you think I am immoral.

I never stated that I don't care. What are you asking if I care about? I did state that I really don't care if I offend you now due to your claim of me not being a true American. I bleed red, white and blue. You also disrespect my flag by putting crap on it, and I have trouble believing that you haven't been called out on it yet. If you have, then my mistake.

He cant.

He cant just aswer the simple Questions.
He cant just say how he knows the difference between right and wrong, he cant just say why the need for marriage when Civil partnership is a religious-less marriage

I probably use some of the same concepts as you in determining right from wrong. Religions don't own the concept of morality and if you can't understand that, you should study some more. How do you know that I didn't learn values from some that were religious? I have never said that all religious values are bad now have I? Hopefully you can grasp this concept.

does us all a favour and give it a rest then :rolleyes:

Tell you what, you give your ramblings a rest and and I'll consider it.

:laugh: I tried to tell him that aswell in another thread...but he couldnt grasp the point :unsure-1:

I can't grasp a non-point as you suggest. You see, I have morality and don't need to be religious in order to live a moral life. If you are too dense to understand that, then that is your problem.

Then answer What you base your morality on...since its only been asked of you in almost every single thread you've ever posted in.

It's been answered, only you are unable to realize it.

Buzzard
04-08-2009, 10:38 PM
When did I say that? :blink:

Immorality in the church is a big problem, but I can guarantee you that the solution is not to allow MORE immorality in the church.

I've got another question (that you'll probably deflect or ignore :laugh: ), what about the Mormons? They're religion tells them that it's okay for a husband to have multiple wives. So is it wrong for the government to ban their definition of marriage as well?

They aren't banning marriage, they are banning polygamy. Your question is based on a false premise. If you are asking me if polygamy should be allowed, that is another question. I haven't really given it much thought to tell you the truth. If it doesn't harm anyone and those involved are willing, then I don't really think it is any of my business what consenting adults do. I'll need to think about this more though in order to cement my opinion.

NateR
04-08-2009, 10:38 PM
It's only hard to know what's right and wrong for non-christians in your closed mind Tyburn. You seem to think that only Christians have a lock on morality, yet you yourself have indulged in what you say are immoral acts that I have not, and you think I am immoral.

I never stated that I don't care. What are you asking if I care about? I did state that I really don't care if I offend you now due to your claim of me not being a true American. I bleed red, white and blue. You also disrespect my flag by putting crap on it, and I have trouble believing that you haven't been called out on it yet. If you have, then my mistake.



I probably use some of the same concepts as you in determining right from wrong. Religions don't own the concept of morality and if you can't understand that, you should study some more. How do you know that I didn't learn values from some that were religious? I have never said that all religious values are bad now have I? Hopefully you can grasp this concept.



Tell you what, you give your ramblings a rest and and I'll consider it.



I can't grasp a non-point as you suggest. You see, I have morality and don't need to be religious in order to live a moral life. If you are too dense to understand that, then that is your problem.



It's been answered, only you are unable to realize it.

You still haven't answered the question: exactly WHAT do you base your morality on?

Crisco
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
They aren't banning marriage, they are banning polygamy. Your question is based on a false premise. If you are asking me if polygamy should be allowed, that is another question. I haven't really given it much thought to tell you the truth. If it doesn't harm anyone and those involved are willing, then I don't really think it is any of my business what consenting adults do. I'll need to think about this more though in order to cement my opinion.

Dave is not saying on Christians can be moral what he is asking is what exactly do you base your morality from?

According you in the previous post you gathered some morals from religous people?

Vizion
04-08-2009, 10:42 PM
It's only hard to know what's right and wrong for non-christians in your closed mind Tyburn.
Great how when/if you disagree with a liberal you are being "close-minded" as if to suggest you never even considered their side of the issue.

weak.:rolleyes:

Crisco
04-08-2009, 10:47 PM
Great how when/if you disagree with a liberal you are being "close-minded" as if to suggest you never even considered their side of the issue.

weak.:rolleyes:

Your closed minded if you disagree with anything that someone agrees with

Vizion
04-08-2009, 11:12 PM
well, there's close-minded and closed-minded. Either way you are still being told you are ignorant or flat out wrong.

Crisco
04-08-2009, 11:13 PM
well, there's close-minded and closed-minded. Either way you are still being told you are ignorant or flat out wrong.

Thought you knew playa

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 11:37 PM
1)It's only hard to know what's right and wrong for non-christians in your closed mind Tyburn. You seem to think that only Christians have a lock on morality, yet you yourself have indulged in what you say are immoral acts that I have not, and you think I am immoral.

2) I never stated that I don't care. What are you asking if I care about? I did state that I really don't care if I offend you now due to your claim of me not being a true American. I bleed red, white and blue. You also disrespect my flag by putting crap on it, and I have trouble believing that you haven't been called out on it yet. If you have, then my mistake.



3) I probably use some of the same concepts as you in determining right from wrong. Religions don't own the concept of morality and if you can't understand that, you should study some more.

4)How do you know that I didn't learn values from some that were religious? I have never said that all religious values are bad now have I? Hopefully you can grasp this concept.



5) Tell you what, you give your ramblings a rest and and I'll consider it.



I can't grasp a non-point as you suggest. You see, I have morality and don't need to be religious in order to live a moral life. If you are too dense to understand that, then that is your problem.



It's been answered, only you are unable to realize it.
1) I never said you were immoral. I simply asked a Question. How do you know the difference between right and wrong?

2) at least I have you flag...do you have mine on your wall :huh: I'm asking if you care about the dangers that immoral behaviour can have on those who indulge in it. Even if it doesnt effect you. Do you care about what happens to them??

3) Actually Religions DO own the concept of Morality...they may not own Ethical Principles though. See a Moral is not a rule made up by a man to suit himself. Its a completely abstract rule from himself. He doesnt make up what is right and wrong in a given situation. He follows the rule. You must have heard that everyone has an opinion, and opinions differ...in order to have true morals its absolutely vital YOU arent deciding for yourself, otherwise the principle is only as good as your own judgement. As you cant claim to be right all the time, that makes your judgement a stupid tool to use for the purpose of an absolute.

Thats WHY Morals come from Religious authorities...because they are a standard set OUTSIDE of any Mans opinion. They arent based on what is best for the follower, neither are they based on the opinion of a fallable man.

Ethics are Moral principles applied to the world in some way. For example, Utilitarianism, is the principle that what should be done is what brings the most people happiness for the majority of the time.

I doubt your moral code is anything like mine...thats EXACTLY why I asked you what EXACTLY you base your sense of right and wrong on. You replied with an ethical principle that doesnt even cover right and wrong (the Golden Rule) So I challenged you to see what was under that little self defence mechanism.

4) I dont...thats why I ASKED. But you do yourself no favours by avoiding these questions and then playing the victim whose missunderstood.

5) I dont think so.

6) You keep saying your moral...but you havent told me what your morals are. How much longer will I have to ask THE SAME QUESTION. WHAT are you morals based on, and HOW do you know right from wrong? its a REALLY simple statement which you just DONT answer...until you answer...How can I know the value system you have??? How can I know what is important to you, what you think is correct, what you think is not...if you ANSWER the question...perhaps I'll leave you alone. :laugh:

Tyburn
04-08-2009, 11:43 PM
You still haven't answered the question: exactly WHAT do you base your morality on?
:laugh: Nathan...I dont think he actually knows :laugh: and I think he's too skeeeeeerd to say "I make up my own moral code based on my opinion of whats right and wrong" which is what most people who arent overtly religious do.

Basically...they make their own rules.

But of course the moment he says that...then its obvious his whole system is only based on HIS OPINION...sinse when has an opinion about what is right and wrong...been proof that that opinion is true?

WE can say "look, we dont make the rules" I can say to him "do you think I like being forced into celebacy?? dont you think I would much rather be having it off with some other guy." I can say "because my Morals dont come from me, they dont always appear to immediately benefit me"

Most non christians have moral codes...which of course benefit themselves...why not...if you can decide what is right and wrong, as a matter of opinion...then its whatever you want it to be. If you fancy a woman and a quickie...well..whats stopping you...???

:huh:

Neezar
04-08-2009, 11:51 PM
:laugh:

NateR
04-08-2009, 11:55 PM
:laugh: Nathan...I dont think he actually knows :laugh: and I think he's too skeeeeeerd to say "I make up my own moral code based on my opinion of whats right and wrong" which is what most people who arent overtly religious do.

Basically...they make their own rules.

But of course the moment he says that...then its obvious his whole system is only based on HIS OPINION...sinse when has an opinion about what is right and wrong...been proof that that opinion is true?

WE can say "look, we dont make the rules" I can say to him "do you think I like being forced into celebacy?? dont you think I would much rather be having it off with some other guy." I can say "because my Morals dont come from me, they dont always appear to immediately benefit me"

Most non christians have moral codes...which of course benefit themselves...why not...if you can decide what is right and wrong, as a matter of opinion...then its whatever you want it to be. If you fancy a woman and a quickie...well..whats stopping you...???

:huh:

During my 10 years in the Army, I saw a lot of guys who defined their own moral codes and it was amazing what kind of ways they would justify things like lying, stealing and sleeping around.

Dave, I think it's also funny that Buzzard is willing to supposedly defend your right to marry a guy, but if you claim that you would rather stick to your religious principles, then he starts to look down on you for your "immorality." I guess some of these "crusaders" have trouble accepting the fact that there are some gays who agree with banning gay marriage.

Obviously this issue goes much deeper than just simple-minded bigotry as the pro-gay marriage people would have everyone believe.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 12:08 AM
Dave, I think it's also funny that Buzzard is willing to supposedly defend your right to marry a guy, but if you claim that you would rather stick to your religious principles, then he starts to look down on you for your "immorality." I guess some of these "crusaders" have trouble accepting the fact that there are some gays who agree with banning gay marriage.

:laugh: :laugh: I know...perhaps he's pissed because the only one openly struggling with homosexuality on this board...has come out (pardon the pun :laugh: ) and put him in his place :laugh: :laugh:

Even the gays dissagree with him :blink: So naturally...I'm a closed minded simpleton, who doesnt know what he's talking about...which is what he's using to justify avoiding the answering of my question. He got on fine with you...aswell...until you dissagreed with him...then suddenly...guess what...your a closed minded simpleton aswell :laugh: :laugh:

Text book Psychology...he jumps all over the box...but WILL NOT jump IN

Hughes_GOAT
04-09-2009, 12:26 AM
During my 10 years in the Army, I saw a lot of guys who defined their own moral codes and it was amazing what kind of ways they would justify things like lying, stealing and sleeping around.



did you write any of those down? i need some new ones.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 02:40 AM
Great how when/if you disagree with a liberal you are being "close-minded" as if to suggest you never even considered their side of the issue.

weak.:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm a centrist. If people would read what is written instead of making things up as Tyburn does, he would see the answers to the questions.

I wasn't always a non-believer. I have learned moral codes from religion that have carried on into my non-believer life. I don't knock on the concept of God, but some of the things in the bible are quite man-made and ugly. There are so many deaths attributed to this loving God that I just don't see the love in these acts. I don't like how religious fundamentalists try to force their religion into government policies that can directly affect me, my friends and others who don't buy into their religious beliefs.

Vizion
04-09-2009, 02:48 AM
I don't knock on the concept of God, but some of the things in the bible are quite man-made and ugly. There are so many deaths attributed to this loving God that I just don't see the love in these acts. .

But who are you to judge what God does? If you were to punch your average friend in the face, wham would happen? maybe a night in jail for assault, a fine and some community service. If you were to punch president Obama in the face you would be locked up in federal prison for life. When wicked people flip God the bird, sometimes God lays the smackdown upon them, it is not our right to suggest what he does is immoral, or wrong. Those are concepts he owns the rights to.

I don't like how religious fundamentalists try to force their religion into government policies that can directly affect me, my friends and others who don't buy into their religious beliefs.But you are ok when your side evokes their agenda into the very lives of said "religious fundamentalists"...? (as is the case with all this gay marriage stuff)

NateR
04-09-2009, 03:45 AM
I don't knock on the concept of God, but some of the things in the bible are quite man-made and ugly. There are so many deaths attributed to this loving God that I just don't see the love in these acts.

Well, that just means that your view of GOD is too narrow.

Hughes_GOAT
04-09-2009, 04:03 AM
Well, that just means that your view of GOD is too narrow.

yeah, God kicks ass. people seem to think he's all about love?

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 04:17 AM
1) I never said you were immoral. I simply asked a Question. How do you know the difference between right and wrong?

Read and you shall find the answers you seek.

2) at least I have you flag...do you have mine on your wall :huh: I'm asking if you care about the dangers that immoral behaviour can have on those who indulge in it. Even if it doesnt effect you. Do you care about what happens to them??

Yes, you have my flag on your wall and disrespect it by pinning things to it. My flag is meant to be proudly flown without crap put on it. I don't have your flag on my wall because I am an American and don't fly the flag of another country.

3) Actually Religions DO own the concept of Morality...they may not own Ethical Principles though. See a Moral is not a rule made up by a man to suit himself. Its a completely abstract rule from himself. He doesnt make up what is right and wrong in a given situation. He follows the rule. You must have heard that everyone has an opinion, and opinions differ...in order to have true morals its absolutely vital YOU arent deciding for yourself, otherwise the principle is only as good as your own judgement. As you cant claim to be right all the time, that makes your judgement a stupid tool to use for the purpose of an absolute.

I believe that you are wrong. Can you offer some proof that the concept of morality only came after religion?

I doubt your moral code is anything like mine...thats EXACTLY why I asked you what EXACTLY you base your sense of right and wrong on. You replied with an ethical principle that doesnt even cover right and wrong (the Golden Rule) So I challenged you to see what was under that little self defence mechanism.

My code may possibly be better than yours, as I have quite a bit more life experience than you and I don't hold religious prejudices against others. I don't need a bible to pick and choose my morals from, though there are lessons of morality in it. I also don't try to deny people their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Read up some and maybe you can grasp the concept that morals aren't owned solely by religion.

4) I dont...thats why I ASKED. But you do yourself no favours by avoiding these questions and then playing the victim whose missunderstood.

The answers are there if you care to actually read and comprehend what is written.

5) I dont think so.

Then I don't either.

6) You keep saying your moral...but you havent told me what your morals are. How much longer will I have to ask THE SAME QUESTION. WHAT are you morals based on, and HOW do you know right from wrong? its a REALLY simple statement which you just DONT answer...until you answer...How can I know the value system you have??? How can I know what is important to you, what you think is correct, what you think is not...if you ANSWER the question...perhaps I'll leave you alone. :laugh:

Perhaps I don't want you to know what is important to me at this moment. How many times am I going to have to tell you that the answers are there if you learn to read and comprehend what is written? I've given 2 (two) examples of how my moral code came to be.


I have thought of ignoring you, but I actually enjoy engaging in stimulating conversations. I hope that we are both able to learn from it. :frantics:

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 04:20 AM
:laugh: Nathan...I dont think he actually knows :laugh: and I think he's too skeeeeeerd to say "I make up my own moral code based on my opinion of whats right and wrong" which is what most people who arent overtly religious do.

Basically...they make their own rules.

But of course the moment he says that...then its obvious his whole system is only based on HIS OPINION...sinse when has an opinion about what is right and wrong...been proof that that opinion is true?

WE can say "look, we dont make the rules" I can say to him "do you think I like being forced into celebacy?? dont you think I would much rather be having it off with some other guy." I can say "because my Morals dont come from me, they dont always appear to immediately benefit me"

Most non christians have moral codes...which of course benefit themselves...why not...if you can decide what is right and wrong, as a matter of opinion...then its whatever you want it to be. If you fancy a woman and a quickie...well..whats stopping you...???

:huh:

You show your ignorance in your assumptions. The more you write, the more you show. Keep it up, you are good for many more laughs.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 04:29 AM
During my 10 years in the Army, I saw a lot of guys who defined their own moral codes and it was amazing what kind of ways they would justify things like lying, stealing and sleeping around.

Dave, I think it's also funny that Buzzard is willing to supposedly defend your right to marry a guy, but if you claim that you would rather stick to your religious principles, then he starts to look down on you for your "immorality." I guess some of these "crusaders" have trouble accepting the fact that there are some gays who agree with banning gay marriage.

Incorrect NateR. I don't care if he wishes to not marry due to his principles, but I don't think his religious principles should deny others who may not believe in a god. I don't look down on him for his "immorality" because I don't feel he is being immoral. He believes it is immoral and I brought it up and I used it in a comparison of my code and his code based upon his code of morality.

If some gays don't want to get married, good for them. Just don't have their religion deny the rights of others who don't believe in religion. I thought that maybe you could understand that.

Obviously this issue goes much deeper than just simple-minded bigotry as the pro-gay marriage people would have everyone believe.

Why you call yourself a simple-minded bigot I don't know. Just don't try to say that I called you that, you defined yourself.



Thanks for the conversation.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Actually, I'm a centrist. If people would read what is written instead of making things up as Tyburn does, he would see the answers to the questions.

I wasn't always a non-believer. I have learned moral codes from religion that have carried on into my non-believer life. I don't knock on the concept of God, but some of the things in the bible are quite man-made and ugly. There are so many deaths attributed to this loving God that I just don't see the love in these acts. I don't like how religious fundamentalists try to force their religion into government policies that can directly affect me, my friends and others who don't buy into their religious beliefs.
:laugh: For Non Americans, Democrats are considered Centrist because although Left of Republicans, they are still further Right then most Centrist Governments outside of the US.

So Centrist as in...Democrat...or Centrist as is Left of Democrat...or are you between Democrat and republic...which to the majority of the world puts you Right of Centrist :huh:

Why have you abandoned GOD but kept his Moral Codes :huh: I mean...why use the moral codes of a system you dont wholeheartedly aggree with? If you cant keep the whole Bible...why keep some of it? Its either the Truth, or its a pack of lies....there isnt really a middle ground because what it says is so radical...its either true and right, or false and wrong.

You might not like Christianity in Government...but you cant deny your forefathers whilst not connecting Church and State directly, thought of it as a Given, that in many ways, there would be no need for Church to run State...as the same people were effectively in Government and Christians. Ever stopped to think that we might not like having our beliefs belittled and Squashed by Politically Correct Heathen??

I mean...Marriage is a religious ceremony that was given to Christians from GOD. Its one of the Seven Sacrements. Why should we be forced to share our sacrements with you?? Why should our priests be forced to sanctify unholy alliances?? Dont you think thats imposing YOUR beliefs on us :huh:

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 12:36 PM
But who are you to judge what God does? If you were to punch your average friend in the face, wham would happen? maybe a night in jail for assault, a fine and some community service. If you were to punch president Obama in the face you would be locked up in federal prison for life. When wicked people flip God the bird, sometimes God lays the smackdown upon them, it is not our right to suggest what he does is immoral, or wrong. Those are concepts he owns the rights to.


Indeed. What I think Buzzard forgets is that GOD is a King. King as in Monarch, Monarch as in Dictator.

GOD says what is right and wrong, what is true and false. Because he is Holy, that makes him Trustworthy and also faithful in the eyes of moral relativity. But we are not really in the position to argue with him. I mean, Hes effectively doing us a favour by saving any of us, by granting anyone of us Eternal Life. He doesnt have to do that...infact, he shouldnt be doing that, he had to go to great personal extent to expose a loop hole in His Divine Law in order to even make such a possibility available.

Thats what this week is all about. Passion-tide. What GOD did to save us without comprimising himself as GOD. It ended in Christ being Killed.

So if the Bible is sometimes ugly, and sometimes GOD seems to act injust...Its so NOT our place to say. He doesnt run a democracy, he has absolutely no reason to debate. He will enforce his Rule after death. Then Buzzard will REALLY know what its like to have someones views pushed on Him.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 12:39 PM
You show your ignorance in your assumptions. The more you write, the more you show. Keep it up, you are good for many more laughs.
once again...when you get sprung, you attack me, rather then anything I say. Talk about defensive. Your reaction proove what im saying :)

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 12:54 PM
I have thought of ignoring you, but I actually enjoy engaging in stimulating conversations. I hope that we are both able to learn from it. :frantics:
1)You finally admitted to stealing most of your value base from the Bible You should have just said that in the first place. Now we can move on :ninja:

2) Tell me,...are you a fan of my videos or something :huh: Only, thats the only way you'd know about the flag... I like your flag, thats why I bought it. It is a keep sake from my First American Dreams Tour. On it is stuck all things American. I couldnt fly your flag, we arent really allowed to fly our own outdoors without council permission. I could have folded it up and left it in a corner...but I decided that would be even MORE disrespectful. The stuff stuck on it is far from Crap...its stuff sent to me by Americans...its not my own junk

Whether you aggree with what ive done or not is up to you.

3) The Concept of Religion is synonimous to every single culture on this planet. There ISNT a culture that doesnt have some religion. What you need to do is research something called "Existentialism" Morals and Ethics come when Ancient Man asked the questions "who am I, Why am I here, What is my purpose" This led to revelations about GOD, an Answer to those Questions "I am Human, made in the image of GOD, I am here to form a relationship with my personal Saviour in order to be reconciled in an everlasting Union with Him, My Purpose is to advance the spread of His Kingdom in preparation for his coming to Judge" or...whatever the other religions say...they all have answers to these Questions which are Absolute, and not simply a matter of opinion...because whose to say whose opinion really matters.

Once that is established they learn to live under the banner of the suggested way that diety teaches. The Golden Rule, for example,. So Morals and Ethics originated from Religion. From Existential angst.

4) The origin of any moral or ethic, if traced back with be a religion. You might pick and chose from various religions, plus your own opinion. But dont claim they were created or devised by some non-religious means. The ideal of there being no god, is increadibly new. Every people throughout every time have believed in something. Even most athiests believe something, or have a point of view on what happens after death.

5) I dont have time to play games. If I ask I expect an answer, if you dont want to give an answer, tell me that...but dont mess me around and avoid the subject.

Bonnie
04-09-2009, 02:23 PM
yeah, God kicks ass. people seem to think he's all about love?

It's called tough love! Disobedient children require tough love. :whip:

God loves us that much! :)

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 05:47 PM
yeah, God kicks ass. people seem to think he's all about love?
GOD is as much Judgement as he is Love.

After all...when inspired by Love...he would rather sacrifice His Son, then comprimise His Judgement.

GOD actually didnt write off the debt of Sin. The debt was paid in full. His Love may have inspired Him to spare us from paying it...but His Judgement, that someone HAD to pay the price of Sin...didnt just vanish.

GODs problem is He's Perfect, only able to ACT perfectly...and yet His creation is momentarily IMPERFECT. He cant come to close, or else they will fry in His Perfection, and yet he refuses out of Love to abandon His dream Creation

The One thing that noone seems to be able to explain is WHY. We arent the only Creation of His, yet he doesnt mind other parts of Creation decaying away. Perhaps its because we are Made in His Image...perhaps it's because what he really wants, he Cant just take.

GOD wants us to Love Him. You cant force someone to Love You. Its amazing. Here is the one being in Existance, the most powerful, all encompassing and creative force...and the one thing that delights Him the most...is the one thing that He cant just make happy. Unrequited Love in return, from His Creation.

Its fantastic, in the Old Testament he proudly announces that We shall be His People, and He shall be Our GOD. He goes on to ask if we really think he enjoys the fact that people end up in Hell if they dont accept Him. He says it as if its the only time being Holy...is actually a pain in the arse, because it stops him from saving everyone. But He cant help who he is. GOD is actually extremely restricted...He has to remain Holy in all he does and all he says. He I who he is. He doesnt have Free Will in the same way that we do. He has power...but not power to undermine his own holiness. He cant actually just do what he wants. He cant just save everyone who he loves...because if he Could do that...Christs sacrifice wouldnt have been needed.

He went to GREAT lengths and personal expense to satisfy His own Value System...and even now, its not a guarentee. Has he Saved everyone? NO. Has he made it a possibility that all might be saved. YES. But guess what...the choice...belongs to the Human...thats the only way he can ensure the Love WE give Him, isnt duty, isnt robotic, isnt programmed into us, isnt forced. Its REAL, absolute Love....then he starts getting excited and says "Be Holy, because I am Holy" LOL...we dont have it in us to "Be Holy" But it shows you what he likes...and when we die he WILL make us perfect. We will be Holy, just as He is Holy...We are Children of GOD, We will be in perfect Union with Him.

If WE want to be. All we Need to do is accept His free gift

Course one we have committed ourselves...why wait for Eternity? He starts to tell us how we can have a relationship with Him. We can learn about Him from His Word, we can speak to Him directly whenever we like. If we let Him lead, he will take us and begin the process of perfection RIGHT NOW. As this process begins we shall actively want to do things that make him Happy...He tells us in His Word, what we can do which will please Him...and what we can do that will make Him sad. If you Love someone, and they have given you Eternal Life...why would you do something that you know would upset them???

Do you know what stopped me being on "The Scene" in London? It was because My Mother phoned me up and we were talking about the morality of practising. She told me that I use the excuse that I cant SEE Jesus to forget and pretend He isnt there. She told me next time I was out on the raz and pulling, to imagine that He was there aswell.

I couldnt do it after that...because I kept imagining Him sitting in the Bar or Club...and he was really, really sad...and I couldnt do it without feeling guilty. I might leave the bar with someone...and on the way Home, I'd still, in my minds eye, see Jesus in the pub...

...Did it stop me practising? No. Did it stop me going out on "The Scene"? Yes. If I wanted to practise, I'd have to do it by arranging meets online or, through my network of friends...I couldnt do it by going for a night on the Town...because I couldnt do it with Jesus sitting at a nearby table, looking glum.

CAVEMAN
04-09-2009, 06:28 PM
A gay marriage would have no bearing on my marriage or life. It doesn't cause me any loss of sleep, income, health or happiness. Does it cause any of this for you? above Quote from Buzzard

God removed his blessings and destroyed whole cities because of this type of wickedness. So yes, it does effect me because the country I live in calls Evil Good & Good Evil! And yes once God removes his blessings all together from this country because our morals become more and more corrupt your sleep, income, health, and happiness will be affected!

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 06:29 PM
God removed his blessings and destroyed whole cities because of this type of wickedness. So yes, it does effect me because the country I live in calls Evil Good & Good Evil! And yes once God removes his blessings all together from this country because our morals become more and more corrupt your sleep, income, health, and happiness will be affected!
Buzzard wont like The Lord, when He is Angry :unsure-1:

County Mike
04-09-2009, 06:41 PM
http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Articles/20080331/425.the.incredible.hulk.033108.jpg

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 07:04 PM
Well, as George Washington said, if you don't believe in religion or morality, then you cannot claim to be a patriot of the United States, because you are not acting in this Christian nation's best interests.


Can you post the link to this quote? I couldn't locate it.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 07:13 PM
But who are you to judge what God does? If you were to punch your average friend in the face, wham would happen? maybe a night in jail for assault, a fine and some community service. If you were to punch president Obama in the face you would be locked up in federal prison for life. When wicked people flip God the bird, sometimes God lays the smackdown upon them, it is not our right to suggest what he does is immoral, or wrong. Those are concepts he owns the rights to.

See, here is where we differ. I won't just go punch my average friend in the face, nor would I punch president Obama in the face. That is against my moral character. You can offer no evidence that there is a God, just like you can offer no evidence of Santa. Oh there is evidence of both, but do you believe that Santa exists too.

But you are ok when your side evokes their agenda into the very lives of said "religious fundamentalists"...? (as is the case with all this gay marriage stuff)

If you keep your nose out of others' lives, then you would have nothing to worry about. You don't like it, fine. Leave your religion to those that choose to live by it. Leave your religion out of the lives of those who don't believe. Do you want to be forced to believe in Allah and follow the rules of the Muslim faith? Probably not, just like non-believers don't want to be force fed your religion into our lives. Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.


My response in blue.

Crisco
04-09-2009, 07:19 PM
My response in blue.

Does your mother know your gay?

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 07:28 PM
:laugh: For Non Americans, Democrats are considered Centrist because although Left of Republicans, they are still further Right then most Centrist Governments outside of the US.

So Centrist as in...Democrat...or Centrist as is Left of Democrat...or are you between Democrat and republic...which to the majority of the world puts you Right of Centrist :huh:

Centrist as in centrist. I don't vote along party lines, I think for myself.

Why have you abandoned GOD but kept his Moral Codes :huh: I mean...why use the moral codes of a system you dont wholeheartedly aggree with? If you cant keep the whole Bible...why keep some of it? Its either the Truth, or its a pack of lies....there isnt really a middle ground because what it says is so radical...its either true and right, or false and wrong.

Quit being so dense, I have explained it to you, but you can't seem to comprehend it.

You might not like Christianity in Government...but you cant deny your forefathers whilst not connecting Church and State directly, thought of it as a Given, that in many ways, there would be no need for Church to run State...as the same people were effectively in Government and Christians. Ever stopped to think that we might not like having our beliefs belittled and Squashed by Politically Correct Heathen??

Unlike you, I don't force you to live without your religious rules, you are still free to live by your religious code. You however wish to force your religious code on all.

I mean...Marriage is a religious ceremony that was given to Christians from GOD. Its one of the Seven Sacrements. Why should we be forced to share our sacrements with you?? Why should our priests be forced to sanctify unholy alliances?? Dont you think thats imposing YOUR beliefs on us :huh:

If you choose to believe that fine. Myself and others don't. You can offer no evidence that can withstand scrutiny that the concept of marriage was given by God, just as you can offer no compelling evidence that there actually is a God. You choose to believe that, I don't. I believe your tale of God was taken from many of the tales of other Gods and conveniently wrapped up in the Christianity package. Why are you so interested in the policies of the U.S.A. regarding this?. I think I know what your answer will be but it would be nice to read your opinion.




My replies in blue.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 07:33 PM
once again...when you get sprung, you attack me, rather then anything I say. Talk about defensive. Your reaction proove what im saying :)


Where did I attack you? Aren't you the one who has called me a non-American and questioned my loyalty to my country? Yes.

I called your assumptions ignorant, which they are.

Vizion
04-09-2009, 07:33 PM
You can offer no evidence that there is a God, just like you can offer no evidence of Santa. Oh there is evidence of both, but do you believe that Santa exists too.God and Santa are different, Santa is a myth, no one other than kids have a belief in him, and that is a superficial belief at that.

I think th evidence of God is MUCH greater than the evidence of random chance, but that is another subject I'm sure you've studied on YOUR side of things. In short, you can no more prove the non-existence of God.

If you keep your nose out of others' lives, then you would have nothing to worry about. Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.Do you even understand why we can't just "keep our noses out of it"? Is it realy that simple to you? Traditional morality is under attack by the Left in this country and abroad. Generally, if people are under attack they fight back, elsewise they become cowards. How is it an attack? The left is attempting to re-write nature, God and the laws of our nation as we speak...that is a threat, and we must respond or watch everything we hold dear be destroyed.

Crisco
04-09-2009, 07:37 PM
This arguement is pointless....


We believe God all mighty gives and takes away and you believe well your not really sure what you believe because science hasn't been able to tell you how life came about exactly.

You want people to marry whatever and who ever they choose and we believe marriage is a sacred bond.

All I'm saying is I don't want to hear **** come out of your mouth when dudes are marrying their dogs and what not... It's the slope you boys took us down.

Enjoy your open mindedness I hope the world turns out exaclty how you want it too :)

que
04-09-2009, 07:39 PM
here is my moral code summarized for a forum post

do not steal, do not cheat, do not lie, do not murder, be kind and fair, be loving. these are values that any man of any religion (or non religion) can embrace. they are values that have existed for many thousands of years in places all over the world that have been inspired by many different religions and non-religions alike. you don't have to be Christian to have good morals or to have a value system. and it seems alot of people here are trying to push that idea on buzzard in an indirect way (and a very direct) way. on a side note... no, you do not have to be a Christian to be an American or to be a "True American" as some here might call it. that is a ridiculous claim and everyone knows that is not true. You can be a Buddhist and be a true American. you can be a Hindu and be a true American. you can be atheist and still be a patriot. you can be agnostic and still be a patriot. the list goes on. anyone who denies that is insane.

btw buzzard i am not trying to defend you just stating my opinion so please keep me out of this thanks

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 07:42 PM
Indeed. What I think Buzzard forgets is that GOD is a King. King as in Monarch, Monarch as in Dictator.

In your world, maybe. In my world God in non-existent.

GOD says what is right and wrong, what is true and false. Because he is Holy, that makes him Trustworthy and also faithful in the eyes of moral relativity. But we are not really in the position to argue with him. I mean, Hes effectively doing us a favour by saving any of us, by granting anyone of us Eternal Life. He doesnt have to do that...infact, he shouldnt be doing that, he had to go to great personal extent to expose a loop hole in His Divine Law in order to even make such a possibility available.

Your claim is based on someone who believes. I don't believe, therefor your religious rules don't apply to me. You just seem to be unable to comprehend that. What will it take for you to understand that I don't believe in your nice story?

Thats what this week is all about. Passion-tide. What GOD did to save us without comprimising himself as GOD. It ended in Christ being Killed.

It has no meaning to me. I do hope that you enjoy and celebrate. You can invite me to celebrate if you wish, just don't force me.

So if the Bible is sometimes ugly, and sometimes GOD seems to act injust...Its so NOT our place to say. He doesnt run a democracy, he has absolutely no reason to debate. He will enforce his Rule after death. Then Buzzard will REALLY know what its like to have someones views pushed on Him.

It is my place to say how my interpretations of a book are. You are free to say that you disagree with my position. Do you believe that the Bible is 100% literal? If not, how do you choose what is and isn't?


Replies in blue.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 07:44 PM
My replies in blue.
1) Oh...you mean Centrist as in "not Republican or democrat" that doesnt automatically make you a Centrist. :rolleyes: Centrist doesnt mean in between the two parties in US Government...as I already stated...the Democrats are probably RIGHT from Centrist...if you arent as Extreme a Liberal by American Standards as Obama...your probably NOT Centrist as defined by the politics used in Government in general throughout the world. Barack is only Liberal by Republican Standards...by the rest of the World...He's probably Centrist.

2) I'm not "Dense" :angry: You write to avoid the obvious Questions to give yourself enough time to think about which answer will make you look the best :laugh:

3) I dont force anyone to do anything. I already said I couldnt force someone to become a Christian. It doesnt work like that. Its about Free Choice...you have to choose for yourself. All I can do is present as much of the Truth to you as possible, and hope you see reason before its too late for you.

4) YES I can. Marriage is historically a RELIGIOUS occasion in almost ANY Culture. AGAIN only recently has it had anything Legal without a Religious connitatation. That is Innovation...but its not true to the Historical facts about marriage, that you forget.

Marriage is done In a Church, its religious, and GOD sanctifies it. THAT is the deffinition of Marriage...call your legal alternative whatever you want...but you have to change the deffinition to do that...which makes it FALSE

Now the Church believes that Marriage is a Spiritual Union aswell, thats why its called a "Sacrement"

Why do I care about Christianity in America?? Because its the last Vestege of Christondom...why else would I care :huh: America is the New Rome you know :happydancing:

5)

Crisco
04-09-2009, 07:45 PM
I think life is a little less scary when you give yourself to God.


It still boggles my mind that people choose the whole it all happened by accident and everything worked out perfectly with absolutely no help at all theory over considering the a creator on some level or another had a hand it.

God is not a person he is a force. An omnipresent entity influincing and watching his creation unfold.



But hey that makes sense to me... But if you are more comfortable thinking about primeordial(sp) oozes and other theories more power to you man. I hope God finds his way into your heart eventually and before it's too late.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 07:47 PM
Where did I attack you? Aren't you the one who has called me a non-American and questioned my loyalty to my country? Yes.

I called your assumptions ignorant, which they are.
When you cant attack what I'm saying.. you attack my character.

I am not Ignorant. In fact...YOU are the spiritually blind one (I just didnt want to say that outright...but THATS true...You havent a clue about what is right and wrong, that much is obvious...and yet you say I am Ignorant??)

Crisco
04-09-2009, 07:47 PM
America is the New Rome you know

Don't lump us in with those funny hatted idolators.

Moose
04-09-2009, 07:49 PM
here is my moral code summarized for a forum post

do not steal, do not cheat, do not lie, do not murder, be kind and fair, be loving. these are values that any man of any religion (or non religion) can embrace. they are values that have existed for many thousands of years in places all over the world that have been inspired by many different religions and non-religions alike. you don't have to be Christian to have good morals or to have a value system. and it seems alot of people here are trying to push that idea on buzzard in an indirect way (and a very direct) way. on a side note... no, you do not have to be a Christian to be an American or to be a "True American" as some here might call it. that is a ridiculous claim and everyone knows that is not true. You can be a Buddhist and be a true American. you can be a Hindu and be a true American. you can be atheist and still be a patriot. you can be agnostic and still be a patriot. the list goes on. anyone who denies that is insane.

btw buzzard i am not trying to defend you just stating my opinion so please keep me out of this thanks

Cosigned.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 08:03 PM
Replies in blue.
1) In YOUR World??? What "world" do you live on. YOU cant tell me what is real and what isnt. It doesnt matter if you believe a truth or not...you cant change the truth by choosing NOT to believe it.

Thats like standing in the middle of a Motor way and saying "these Cars dont exist in my world...therefore they wont run me down" That is EXACTLY what you are doing. GOD WILL flatten you if you arent Saved...whether you believe in Him or Not...he wont evaporate becaus in Buzzards "world" he doesnt exist :laugh:

2) NO my claim isnt based on applicability for someone who believes. My claim is TRUE whether you believe it or not. You cant change the Truth not believeing. This is not mind over matter...you cant make GOD vanish :laugh:

Secondly...do you not listen to me?? I told you I DONT MAKE THE RULES...im not like you, I dont make my rules to suit myself. I base my rules on what is REAL. These Rules apply to YOU whether you like it or not. Follow them and you get Eternal Life...break them, You die. Its not bloody rocket science

3) If your not a Christian...what right do you have to celebrate a Christian festival :huh: If You dont believe in Christ, thats your choice...but you shouldnt be sharing in any benefits of the religious life. You shouldnt be having a bank Holiday, you shouldnt be eating Easter Eggs...you shouldnt be having gifts at Christmas...why waste your time?? If you dont believe...go create your own ceremonies...dont pretend to be a Christian. You cant fool GOD, he's not a dumbass

Why even bother going to Church...what do you think they will say to you? something other then The Truth which you refuse to acknowledge?? Your so clever you've got it all worked out...in YOUR opinion...which...quite frankly, is about as worthless as any mans opinion. You stake your eternal soul on your own foolish opinion???

Your Funeral. There is no other way of saying this to you. You are not the centre of the universe, you are not the fount of all knowledge, your opinion is nothing more then the opinion of a fallen man. If I am wrong...I lose nothing. If you are wrong...you lose EVERYTHING

4) Do I believe the Bible is "litteral" is a different Question to Do I believe the Bible is GODs Word.

The Bible is a set of books, Written by GOD through many people, in many different forms of writing. Some of the Bible, like the Law is supposed to be Literal, some of the Bible, like The Song of Solomon...is a poem. Its poetry...and its..a bit pornographic aswell :ashamed: Personally, I'm NOT tempted to shimmy up the tree trunk and drink from the coconuts...but thats just personal preference...dont let me stop a married man...doing that to His Wife :happydancing:

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 08:04 PM
Don't lump us in with those funny hatted idolators.
:laugh: I didnt mean liturgically...I meant, with the same level of authority. :rolleyes:

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 08:11 PM
1)You finally admitted to stealing most of your value base from the Bible You should have just said that in the first place. Now we can move on :ninja:

You are now accusing me of being a thief. I did no such thing. Again, you believe that all sense of morality comes from the bible. The bible has just packaged up a moral code in a convenient package. Common sense and being able to think on ones own can cover much of the morality spoken of in the bible. At least for some of us.

2) Tell me,...are you a fan of my videos or something :huh:

No, I read a post where you described pinning things on the flag of my country. I haven't seen any of your videos.

Only, thats the only way you'd know about the flag... I like your flag, thats why I bought it. It is a keep sake from my First American Dreams Tour. On it is stuck all things American.

No, you have posted about pinning stuff on it. Thank you for liking our flag. I love my flag and don't like to see it dis-respected. May I suggest that you mount the flag and put your mementos around it. My flag does not deserve to be used as a pin up board in the manner that you have done.

I couldnt fly your flag, we arent really allowed to fly our own outdoors without council permission. I could have folded it up and left it in a corner...but I decided that would be even MORE disrespectful. The stuff stuck on it is far from Crap...its stuff sent to me by Americans...its not my own junk

Whether you aggree with what ive done or not is up to you.

I feel that you have disrespected the flag of my country by using it as a pin-cushion.

3) The Concept of Religion is synonimous to every single culture on this planet. There ISNT a culture that doesnt have some religion. What you need to do is research something called "Existentialism" Morals and Ethics come when Ancient Man asked the questions "who am I, Why am I here, What is my purpose" This led to revelations about GOD, an Answer to those Questions "I am Human, made in the image of GOD, I am here to form a relationship with my personal Saviour in order to be reconciled in an everlasting Union with Him, My Purpose is to advance the spread of His Kingdom in preparation for his coming to Judge" or...whatever the other religions say...they all have answers to these Questions which are Absolute, and not simply a matter of opinion...because whose to say whose opinion really matters.

For the unworldly and uneducated people of past ages, I can understand their search and reasons for making this stuff up. I can't see how educated people in this day and age can still believe this.

Once that is established they learn to live under the banner of the suggested way that diety teaches. The Golden Rule, for example,. So Morals and Ethics originated from Religion. From Existential angst.

Again, I'm not saying that you can't believe that, I personally believe that people can live a moral life without the aid of religion. Granted, religion has packaged up morality in a convenient package and I can understand that you feel religion owns the concepts of morality. There were morals before Christianity.

4) The origin of any moral or ethic, if traced back with be a religion. You might pick and chose from various religions, plus your own opinion. But dont claim they were created or devised by some non-religious means.

So now you admit that Christianity isn't the owner of the concept of morality. I wondered how long it would take you to slip and contradict your earlier statement.

The ideal of there being no god, is increadibly new. Every people throughout every time have believed in something.

So is the idea of quantum physics. Some people believe that they will have another beer.:laugh: I would think that some people believed because they weren't educated to the degree which we are today.


Even most athiests believe something, or have a point of view on what happens after death.

I believe that after death my body will decay and release my compounds back into the earth. Can you offer some evidence that most atheists believe that something magical or supernatural happens after death?


5) I dont have time to play games. If I ask I expect an answer, if you dont want to give an answer, tell me that...but dont mess me around and avoid the subject.

Great, I don't either. I wouldn't be spending the time here if I was playing games. I have many other things that I could be doing, but enjoy the stimulation that this provides. It makes us think, which is a great exercise for the brain. If I want to play games, I have PC games and Wii and X-Box for that.


Replies in blue.

J.B.
04-09-2009, 08:14 PM
First of all, I don't think anybody should be suprised that this happened in Vermont. Heck, that state gives child rapists probation.

Furthermore, the real problem is people like Buzzard who act like religion is being forced down their throat. Even though Obama seems to have forgotten, America IS a nation of MOSTLY Christians. As Americans, Christians have a right to voice their opinion as much as anybody else. That is not us forcing our religion on Buzzard or any other bird brain.

America is also a democracy, which means we vote on issues. However, every time gay marriage gets put to a vote of the people, it gets crushed. Hmmm, wonder why that is? Could it be that the MAJORITY of people just do not approve of it? Why is that so hard to accept? Oh, thats right, you are a die hard liberal. If social issues do not conform to your strict and narrow world view, then they are just wrong and outdated. Same goes for die-hard conservatives.

Oh, one last thing Buzzard. Please take your tone down a notch when talking about Christianity. Nobody here is forcing you to convert, but just like America, this forum is MOSTLY Christians. You would not wander into the south side of Chicago and thumb your nose at African American culture, would you?

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 08:14 PM
above Quote from Buzzard

God removed his blessings and destroyed whole cities because of this type of wickedness. So yes, it does effect me because the country I live in calls Evil Good & Good Evil! And yes once God removes his blessings all together from this country because our morals become more and more corrupt your sleep, income, health, and happiness will be affected!

If you believe that great. If the time comes and God destroys cities and you are a part of it, wouldn't that be a blessing to you where you could then join up with him in heaven? Isn't that what Christians want, to join up with God in heaven? If it is God's will, it is God's will.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 08:21 PM
Does your mother know your gay?

Ah, I see. Since you can't engage in an intelligent conversation, you throw out the attack. I guess I was wrong for thinking that you had a brain bigger than a pea. Thanks for clarifying it.

Usually those that make that kind of accusation have doubt about their own sexual orientation. I don't need to defend my heterosexuality against someone who lacks in brain function.

Crisco
04-09-2009, 08:27 PM
The ideal of there being no god, is increadibly new. Every people throughout every time have believed in something.

So is the idea of quantum physics. Some people believe that they will have another beer. I would think that some people believed because they weren't educated to the degree which we are today.[/

It's a shame that this "education" your speaking off is the source of your disbelief...

In your educated opinion

How did life begin? Why did life begin? Do you believe in the big bang theory?

Crisco
04-09-2009, 08:28 PM
Ah, I see. Since you can't engage in an intelligent conversation, you throw out the attack. I guess I was wrong for thinking that you had a brain bigger than a pea. Thanks for clarifying it.

Usually those that make that kind of accusation have doubt about their own sexual orientation. I don't need to defend my heterosexuality against someone who lacks in brain function.

Get your panties out of a knot I was joking with you.

Stop acting like a pansy you fem

J.B.
04-09-2009, 08:32 PM
Get your panties out of a knot I was joking with you.

Stop acting like a pansy you fem

:laugh:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u73/aurelyn_eire/internet-serious-business.jpg

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 08:35 PM
Get your panties out of a knot I was joking with you.

Stop acting like a pansy you fem

Aw, did I hurt the widdle babies feewings? I sowwy :laugh:

They weren't my panties, they were yo mama's!

Crisco
04-09-2009, 08:36 PM
http://www.codefromjames.com/wowhilarious/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/whore_mouth_cat.jpg

lol JB

Crisco
04-09-2009, 08:36 PM
Aw, did I hurt the widdle babies feewings? I sowwy :laugh:

If I call you a fem you can't call me a baby that is not how it works. Stupid atheists have no moral code at all. jeez.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 08:43 PM
Replies in blue.
1) Everyone gets their inspiration from somewhere. You admited you kept most of your Christian Values...though you never answered my question why. Doesnt taking Christian Values..without believeing Christianity to be correct...effectively, adopting a moral code that doesnt belong to you?

2) I dont remember posting about it...but if you say so. :)

3) :laugh: My wall is not big enough to do as you suggest. The flag is not being used for ceremonial purposes, as that wouldnt be tollerated by the local council. As its effectively my property I may do with it what I wish. I see under the circumstances, no problem with sticking American stuff on an American flag...I promise however, that I shall never cut it up, or burn it, or intentionally harm it in anyway. Even the stuff stuck on is only tacked...it can be pulled off without leaving a single mark. I really ought to wash it...but I'm frightened that something might happen to it in the wash (I dont own a washing machine...I must travel to my parents to do that...and their machine isnt...trustworthy.) I would actually cry if it got ripped or it shrank, or the colours ran, or it melted or something. Its very special to me, because I got it when I went to America to see Nathan Rosario. It reminds me of my Trip (Incidently...I will probably buy a second when I return to the United States...except I might look to buy the flags of the States I visit...how nice it would be to have them on my wall also...but probably smaller then full size...my flat aint huge...I'm not made of money...but what a wonderful idea :happydancing:

4) It is not a pin cusion. There are no pins going through it...that would fill it with holes and damage it!! :angry:

5) Educated?? Educated in what exactly? Existentialism?? Has it ever crossed your mind that people might be generally more dumb now, then in ancient times. That what we have now is actually many people avoiding reality by living an illusion??

6) There were morals before Christianity...but those to were Religious. Misguided Truthes...but Religious non the less. Sorry I should have made it clear. I dont believe that Christianity owns morality totally, I believe that Religion as defined by a belief in the devine, YES, created the idea of Morals and ethics. Some of those are true (as outlined in Scriptures) some are not true (as outlined by any religious morality outside of Christ...usually..these are not completely wrong...they are just limited in their amount of revelation and thus...some what...diminuitive :unsure-1:

7) No. Actually...this is a lesson for you. YOU pressupposed I was using the word "Religious" and the word "Christianity" to mean the same thing. I wasnt. Now, Granted I should have made that clear...but if you were insightful you would have asked me to clarify my definitions of both...and then you wouldnt have believed a falsity

8) Here is the thing. Religion doesnt age. Its supposed to be an absolute. That means it never changes. We might have become more educated in some things...but religion as a whole is being whitewashed...and the answer to why...is unfortunate.

There are two things which led to people disregarding Christianity (I cant speak for the other religions) The first was the Roman Catholic Church. Kinda shot itself in the foot when it refused to accept that Science (if understood properly) is actually a form of Worship, for it simply exposes GODs glory in more minute details then is outlined in scriptures at some points. When they refused to recognise this truth, people wrote them off.

Secondly, the Philosophical Enlightenment which happened just after the above. This was a group of European Thinkers who believed that GOD is actually more like a clockmaker. He created the Universe...then walked away, watched it tick. Therefore Science, Rational, and logical reason, were the only ways to understand the divine...and slowly, GOD became less and less important to them.

Now that brings us to the Modern Era...but we are actually POST Modern. The Modern Era saw a rise in the occult and Gothic because people NEED something mystical beyond themselves...and if they couldnt use the church anymore...This might have led somewhere had it not been for two world wars which wiped out a whole generation of Christian Men in Europe. The descendents let their hair down as a response to stress...and since then they have advocated moral relativity...and atheism. Forty years on...and already you are seeing the rise of literal new age paganism...as people begin that innate search for the Truth.

People need something beyond themselves (well..a vast proportion do) if you dont give them the Truth...they will go so far as to make the truth up...just so they know SOMETHING is True and real.

9) what I mean is...they have a theory as to what happens to the Soul. They say it just decomposes. Can you proove the soul decomposes with the Body...by Soul...I mean, whatever you propose is the thinking part of you.

10)

Then lets see if you can answer a direct question, clearly and precisely

Tell me Buzzard...why ARE you posting here, and more to the point, why are you posting in all the topics that involve Christianity in some way, shape or form?

What is your purpose for partaking in this forum?

rearnakedchoke
04-09-2009, 08:53 PM
To be fair to buzzard, and i am not defending him, he posted in the Politics forum and said "For all who don't like them, don't watch them" ... he didn't really start until he was asked his beliefs ...

J.B.
04-09-2009, 09:00 PM
Aw, did I hurt the widdle babies feewings? I sowwy :laugh:

They weren't my panties, they were yo mama's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6XS9Hwrv4

Crisco
04-09-2009, 09:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrN7MpdbuBI

I don't know what that is I'm at work can't view it. Tell me!

NateR
04-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Aw, did I hurt the widdle babies feewings? I sowwy :laugh:

They weren't my panties, they were yo mama's!

This is a warning, you get a ban if you do this again.

NateR
04-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Replies in blue.

Then how do you explain brilliant and educated men who STILL believe in GOD and Christianity?

If you just assume that anyone who believes in GOD is ignorant or stupid, then that just shows your own bigotry and lack of knowledge of this subject.

You are obviously not an intelligent or rational thinking person, you've proven that with the ignorance you've displayed here.

I'll leave you with a quote from someone you would consider an uneducated simpleton:

It takes no brains to be an atheist. Any stupid person can deny the existence of a supernatural power because man's physical senses cannot detect it. But there cannot be ignored the influence of conscience, the respect we feel for the Moral Law, the mystery of first life ...or the marvelous order in which the universe moves about us on this earth. All these evidence the handiwork of the beneficent Deity. . . That Deity is the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ, His Son.
-DWIGHT EISENHOWER

Crisco
04-09-2009, 09:33 PM
Then how do you explain brilliant and educated men who STILL believe in GOD and Christianity?

If you just assume that anyone who believes in GOD is ignorant or stupid, then that just shows your own bigotry and lack of knowledge of this subject.

You are obviously not an intelligent or rational thinking person, you've proven that with the ignorance you've displayed here.

I'll leave you with a quote from someone you would consider an uneducated simpleton:

I love that quote. Every time I read it I get chills.

Also I apologize for my remarks to Buzzard. I was out of line when I called him a pansy and a fem I got carried away and it wasn't very christ like.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 09:57 PM
1) Oh...you mean Centrist as in "not Republican or democrat" that doesnt automatically make you a Centrist. :rolleyes: Centrist doesnt mean in between the two parties in US Government...as I already stated...the Democrats are probably RIGHT from Centrist...if you arent as Extreme a Liberal by American Standards as Obama...your probably NOT Centrist as defined by the politics used in Government in general throughout the world. Barack is only Liberal by Republican Standards...by the rest of the World...He's probably Centrist.

Since you don't know my political beliefs, you aren't qualified to determine what label I fall under. Again, your assumptions are making you appear ignorant.

2) I'm not "Dense" :angry: You write to avoid the obvious Questions to give yourself enough time to think about which answer will make you look the best :laugh:

Do you not think before you write? I guess not seeing as how you butcher the English language. You are dense because you don't comprehend what is written. What obvious questions have I avoided? I have tried to reply to all questions asked of me.

3) I dont force anyone to do anything. I already said I couldnt force someone to become a Christian. It doesnt work like that. Its about Free Choice...you have to choose for yourself. All I can do is present as much of the Truth to you as possible, and hope you see reason before its too late for you.

You try to force issues through your religion. You wish for your religious values to be forced on others.

4) YES I can. Marriage is historically a RELIGIOUS occasion in almost ANY Culture. AGAIN only recently has it had anything Legal without a Religious connitatation. That is Innovation...but its not true to the Historical facts about marriage, that you forget.

Marriage is done In a Church, its religious, and GOD sanctifies it. THAT is the deffinition of Marriage...call your legal alternative whatever you want...but you have to change the deffinition to do that...which makes it FALSE

Now the Church believes that Marriage is a Spiritual Union aswell, thats why its called a "Sacrement"

Are you saying that when a Justice of the Peace performs a marriage ceremony that the people getting married aren't married?

Why do I care about Christianity in America?? Because its the last Vestege of Christondom...why else would I care :huh: America is the New Rome you know :happydancing:

Care all you wish, just don't force non-believers to live by your religious values.
5)

Replies in a non-red color.

Crisco
04-09-2009, 10:01 PM
Isn't forcing Christians to accept gay marriages the same as forcing your beliefs on us?

Male vs Male sex isn't natural or "scientific" according to your "faith" it shouldn't happen because it doesn't serve a purpose. So why should they be able to force their values on the entire populace whom the vast majority do not believe they should be married.

CAVEMAN
04-09-2009, 10:12 PM
If you believe that great. If the time comes and God destroys cities and you are a part of it, wouldn't that be a blessing to you where you could then join up with him in heaven? Isn't that what Christians want, to join up with God in heaven? If it is God's will, it is God's will.

Well your the one that said gay marriage does/will not affect you. Yet GOD the creator & sustainer of all things will pour his wrath upon this country for that sin among many others AND YOU WILL BE AFFECTED! Now you may be like most people in this country today who:
A) Don't believe that or don't believe in absolute truth.
B) Don't care
C) Don't think it's that big of a deal
D) All of the above

Still doesn't mean that GOD will not punish us!

Your right! If it is his will to destroy us, so be it. But as a Christian I am to be light and salt while I am here on this earth. I am to stand up for biblical truth or stand against what is not biblical truth!

Miss Foxy
04-09-2009, 10:20 PM
All I have to say is Buzzard if you were drowning, on fire, or being tortured I bet you would ask God for help... No one in this forum wants to get ugly or vicious with you, however there are 2 things you don't dare do on this forum 1. mess/talk/downplay/disrespect GOD....
2. mess/talk/disrespect MATT HUGHES nor his family....
Now if you want to be friends we can be, however enough is enough you are entitled to your beliefs. Please remember those 2 rules.. I am not a moderator or anybody important just a die hard Matt Hughes fan that will speak up when need be. I just don't appreciate it whatsoever so I am coming at you like a grown woman.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 10:31 PM
:laugh: :laugh: I know...perhaps he's pissed because the only one openly struggling with homosexuality on this board...has come out (pardon the pun :laugh: ) and put him in his place :laugh: :laugh:

You have not put me in my place, you have shown your absolute ineptitude in basic spelling skills along with the inability to comprehend the written word. How many years were you held back?

Even the gays dissagree with him :blink: So naturally...I'm a closed minded simpleton, who doesnt know what he's talking about...which is what he's using to justify avoiding the answering of my question. He got on fine with you...aswell...until you dissagreed with him...then suddenly...guess what...your a closed minded simpleton aswell :laugh: :laugh:

Hey simpleton, (your words, not mine) what haven't I answered? Are you speaking on behalf of all gays? I do believe that much of the gay population wants to have the opportunity to marry, that's why it's a big news item. I get along fine with NateR. Yes, he has disagreed with me, but I hold no ill feelings for him. I just think that religion should stay out of the political arena. If you are too dense to understand that, then I don't know what to say to help it get through to you.

What question have I avoided answering?

Text book Psychology...he jumps all over the box...but WILL NOT jump IN

Yeah, like you would understand textbook psychology. I'm surprised that you could spell it, let alone understand it. What's worse is that there is spell check on this forum, at least on my end. Yes, an unnecessary jab, but true nonetheless.



For your convenience.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 10:37 PM
This is a warning, you get a ban if you do this again.

Ah, so twice people have made jokes against me saying that I am gay, yet I am the one threatened to be banned because I reply in kind with a joke. Wow.:blink:

How does it work NateR, am I supposed to suck up to you in order to get away with stuff?

If I offended you Crisco, my apologies.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Replies in a non-red color.
1) if you used the proper definitions and didnt try to play games I wouldnt have to make assumptions. I'm telling you, standing between the two parties doesnt make you Centrist.

Believe it or not I have actually taken modules in politics at Degree level :rolleyes:

2) You reply without answering the question. its taken about ten bloody pages to get you to answer one simple question. Now...how long is it going to take for you to tell me precisely and CLEARLY where you are on the political spectrum...whats more, I think you do it deliberatley. Your here to play games and waste my time.

3) I wish everyone would know the Truth...Yes. I wish everyone could have Eternal life...Yes...but I've told you thrice. I CANT force people. It has to be there choice. What part of that do you struggle with :huh:

4) You just dont get it do you! GOD sanctifies a marriage. NOONE BUT GOD. I dont care if the President of The United States performs a marriage ceremony...the fact is, if GOD is not a part of it. It ISNT a marriage in the proper deffinition.

5) Have I forced you or anyone else? :mellow:

Do what you want. Repent and be Saved....or die. The choice is yours, and at the outcome you will have noone but yourself to blame :ninja:

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 11:08 PM
Ah, so twice people have made jokes against me saying that I am gay, yet I am the one threatened to be banned because I reply in kind with a joke. Wow.:blink:

How does it work NateR, am I supposed to suck up to you in order to get away with stuff?

If I offended you Crisco, my apologies.
You have a problem with Absolutes dont you.

See Nathan isnt running a Democracy here, anymore then GOD is in the World.

If you dont like Nathans rules...go somewhere else.

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 11:09 PM
1) Everyone gets their inspiration from somewhere. You admited you kept most of your Christian Values...though you never answered my question why. Doesnt taking Christian Values..without believeing Christianity to be correct...effectively, adopting a moral code that doesnt belong to you?

You assume that I was a Christian. What part don't you get? Christianity doesn't own morality.

2) I dont remember posting about it...but if you say so. :)

3) :laugh: My wall is not big enough to do as you suggest. The flag is not being used for ceremonial purposes, as that wouldnt be tollerated by the local council. As its effectively my property I may do with it what I wish. I see under the circumstances, no problem with sticking American stuff on an American flag...I promise however, that I shall never cut it up, or burn it, or intentionally harm it in anyway. Even the stuff stuck on is only tacked...it can be pulled off without leaving a single mark. I really ought to wash it...but I'm frightened that something might happen to it in the wash (I dont own a washing machine...I must travel to my parents to do that...and their machine isnt...trustworthy.) I would actually cry if it got ripped or it shrank, or the colours ran, or it melted or something. Its very special to me, because I got it when I went to America to see Nathan Rosario. It reminds me of my Trip (Incidently...I will probably buy a second when I return to the United States...except I might look to buy the flags of the States I visit...how nice it would be to have them on my wall also...but probably smaller then full size...my flat aint huge...I'm not made of money...but what a wonderful idea :happydancing:


4) It is not a pin cusion. There are no pins going through it...that would fill it with holes and damage it!! :angry:

While I am glad that you like our flag, it still bothers me to see it used as a memo board.


5) Educated?? Educated in what exactly? Existentialism?? Has it ever crossed your mind that people might be generally more dumb now, then in ancient times. That what we have now is actually many people avoiding reality by living an illusion??

In ancient times, they had no knowledge of the discoveries that were made in modern times. There were many brilliant men and women back then, but they were limited to the science that was available back then.

6) There were morals before Christianity...but those to were Religious. Misguided Truthes...but Religious non the less. Sorry I should have made it clear. I dont believe that Christianity owns morality totally, I believe that Religion as defined by a belief in the devine, YES, created the idea of Morals and ethics. Some of those are true (as outlined in Scriptures) some are not true (as outlined by any religious morality outside of Christ...usually..these are not completely wrong...they are just limited in their amount of revelation and thus...some what...diminuitive :unsure-1:

Oh, so any moral codes that didn't come from Christianity aren't really morals then? If a moral, being "one shouldn't lie" came before Christianity, it wasn't really a moral until Christianity? Nonsense.

7) No. Actually...this is a lesson for you. YOU pressupposed I was using the word "Religious" and the word "Christianity" to mean the same thing. I wasnt. Now, Granted I should have made that clear...but if you were insightful you would have asked me to clarify my definitions of both...and then you wouldnt have believed a falsity

I can't help it if you can't make clear what you write. I take what you write at face value and don't assume you meant anything other than what you wrote.

8) Here is the thing. Religion doesnt age. Its supposed to be an absolute. That means it never changes. We might have become more educated in some things...but religion as a whole is being whitewashed...and the answer to why...is unfortunate.

There are two things which led to people disregarding Christianity (I cant speak for the other religions) The first was the Roman Catholic Church. Kinda shot itself in the foot when it refused to accept that Science (if understood properly) is actually a form of Worship, for it simply exposes GODs glory in more minute details then is outlined in scriptures at some points. When they refused to recognise this truth, people wrote them off.

Secondly, the Philosophical Enlightenment which happened just after the above. This was a group of European Thinkers who believed that GOD is actually more like a clockmaker. He created the Universe...then walked away, watched it tick. Therefore Science, Rational, and logical reason, were the only ways to understand the divine...and slowly, GOD became less and less important to them.

Now that brings us to the Modern Era...but we are actually POST Modern. The Modern Era saw a rise in the occult and Gothic because people NEED something mystical beyond themselves...and if they couldnt use the church anymore...This might have led somewhere had it not been for two world wars which wiped out a whole generation of Christian Men in Europe. The descendents let their hair down as a response to stress...and since then they have advocated moral relativity...and atheism. Forty years on...and already you are seeing the rise of literal new age paganism...as people begin that innate search for the Truth.

People need something beyond themselves (well..a vast proportion do) if you dont give them the Truth...they will go so far as to make the truth up...just so they know SOMETHING is True and real.

9) what I mean is...they have a theory as to what happens to the Soul. They say it just decomposes. Can you proove the soul decomposes with the Body...by Soul...I mean, whatever you propose is the thinking part of you.

10)

Then lets see if you can answer a direct question, clearly and precisely

Tell me Buzzard...why ARE you posting here, and more to the point, why are you posting in all the topics that involve Christianity in some way, shape or form?

I am posting in the politics forum because I choose to. I want to keep politics separate from religion, but religious folks choose to bring religion into politics. Am I not allowed to post in the politics forum if someone else brings religion into it? Why are you bringing religion into the politics forum?

If you'll notice, I have only once posted in the Christianity forum, that to show you that there is music out there by a man named Devine when you asked if there was any Devine music.

I have followed your rules and kept out of any conversations in there with the one exception.

I apologize if I offend you with my political beliefs, but you offended me by calling me un-American. That my friend is uncalled for and beneath you.

What is your purpose for partaking in this forum?

I enjoy the conversation when I have free time, hoping I can learn something and possibly have others learn from my experience. What is your purpose in this forum?



Replies in the shade of a different color.

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 11:20 PM
For your convenience.
1) I have put you in your place. the fact your going into defensive mode prooves it.

"how many years were you held back" is a prime example of you attacking my character rather then my argument. I am begining to get frustrated with your rudeness

2) :laugh: If you were getting along fine with Nathan he wouldnt be one step away from banning you.

Youve yet to answer why you post here...which is my most recent question. I think it will be many pages before you admit to the obvious over that.

3) Unfortunately for you I've graduated University with a degree in social sciences, including Psychology, sociology, philosophy, English Lit. I covered things like Philosophy of Science, Philosophy of Religion, Philosophy of Time, Philosophy of Politics, I studied people like Fredrich Nietzsche, Michele Foucault, The History of Sexuality, Power Discourse, I did a little bit of Anthropology and Ethnography in my Dissertation about Symbolism, Violence, aggression, dominance and submission. I studied Military Strategy when the United States invaded Iraq. I studied International Law at the time of Afghanistan, I did about Censorship and Media when Condi Rice tried to Smush Al Jazera. I lived in a majority Islamic City during 9/11 and I lived and worked in the city of London when it was bombed by terrorists as a thankyou gift for supporting the US. I've worked from sorting Waste in a walkin fridge in a supermarket, to leading Processions in Saint Paul's Cathedral infront of Royalty

Trust me when I say. I Know what I am talking about when it comes to Psychology...particularly, when your not even anything unsual for the type who simply wants to disrupt, rather then learn...to attack rather then debate...and someone who is fast becoming most dissagreeable.

J.B.
04-09-2009, 11:23 PM
I don't know what that is I'm at work can't view it. Tell me!

It's a guy doing some Yo Momma jokes. :laugh:

Tyburn
04-09-2009, 11:37 PM
Replies in the shade of a different color.
1) I dont care what you were, nor what you are. If you were Christian you stole it from Christianity...if you were some other religion...guess what...you stole it from them

2) I dont mind that your uncomfortable.

3) What does that have to do with the price of eggs? We are talking about absolutes in Christianity, not new discoveries in Science

4) A moral is a Religious code of practise. A moral doesnt have to be True. You have Morals, that make up your value system. They arent True, but they will be morals, and stolen from some religious view somewhere

5) No you dont. You just love to create Drama, you do your best to catch people out rather then being mature and discussing things. You wont actually commit to the debate. You just analyse my writing style and put off answering the important Questions

6) I think your here to cause trouble. I dont think your serious about answering questions and haveing an intelligent debate. I dont think you want to learn, nor feel you have anything to learn.

I think thats why you post in the Politics section, and not the woodshed or the parts relating to Mixed Martial Arts.

As for keeping Christianity out of politics. This is a Christian Forum. Christianity effects EVERYTHING a Christian does. It wont be separated from anything. As Matt Hughes is a Christian, so this whole website is a Christian website.

Get used to it, because thats not going to change.

7)

My purpose on the Forum?

There are many reasons why I post here

*I have found a place where I am accepted, and I can flourish
*I have many friends which I can visit on my States Tour
*I love Mixed Martial Arts (this is an MMA Forum)
* I am a Christian and Matt Hughes inspires me (This is a Christian forum)
*These people have changed my life and I owe a debt of gratitude to them
*These people support me, they help me, they talk to me
*I have responsibilities. I was Christian Section Moderator, I am Co-Moderator of The Ultimate Fighter Section, and I am also Moderator of the Politics Section (I'm unbiased in American politics coz...I'm not American LOL)
*I love this Forum
*I have history on this Forum
*I love interacting with Americans, and this Forum is primarily American
*I like to share my opinion, and this is as good a place as any to do that
*I feel qualified with my academics and experience to add something of worth and value to this place even if I dont train
*Its been invaluable in setting up a world wide network of friends who have helped me to publish my writings online, and now in magazines

For the final reason as to why I'm here...Watch this video

...and please..when you reply...include a response to the reasons on the Video aswell as above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjc8FDA6G9g

Buzzard
04-09-2009, 11:43 PM
Then how do you explain brilliant and educated men who STILL believe in GOD and Christianity?

Faith.

If you just assume that anyone who believes in GOD is ignorant or stupid, then that just shows your own bigotry and lack of knowledge of this subject.

I don't. Never have, never will. There are educated opinions coming from all sides. I'm just on a different side than most in this forum I see. When I use the word ignorant, it is not a jab, it just means a lack of knowledge in a chosen area.

You are obviously not an intelligent or rational thinking person, you've proven that with the ignorance you've displayed here.

I would bet that I am more intelligent than you give me credit for. I can spell. I can string a sentence together. I can learn from mistakes. You say I'm not rational because I don't believe in something that you believe in, yet you can't show me any evidence of what you believe? I believe that you have shown more ignorance than I, yet I have not called into question your intelligence. You are an interesting one NateR.

I'll leave you with a quote from someone you would consider an uneducated simpleton:

Why you choose to assume that is beyond me. I have never stated that or implied that.



I'll leave you with a quote too, how about that?

"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."

Christopher Hitchens

Why you chose to insult me with your quote I don't know, but hey, have at it.


.....

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 12:04 AM
Isn't forcing Christians to accept gay marriages the same as forcing your beliefs on us?

Male vs Male sex isn't natural or "scientific" according to your "faith" it shouldn't happen because it doesn't serve a purpose. So why should they be able to force their values on the entire populace whom the vast majority do not believe they should be married.

No one is forcing you to accept it. I personally am not thrilled with it, but it doesn't affect me or my marriage in one bit. Why should I deny someone happiness when it doesn't affect me. If you let if affect your marriage, I would question why it does.

They're not forcing their values on you, you are still free to believe what you want. I don't believe your values should deny others the right to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Look, I realize I have a very unpopular opinion here, and I will bow out gracefully again if that is what people wish. Since I have been responded to, I like to show the courtesy back when asked. If you don't want me to respond back, let me know and I'll let it slide. I do hope that my opinions are still welcomed in this section of the forum.

Vizion
04-10-2009, 12:05 AM
:funny:

"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason,

So you're not surrending your reason and mind to have faith in what you believe...no?

it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals.

Puhleese :rotfl: ...how many other mammals have discovered the flipping atom for crying out loud?? Faith is FAR FROM the "only thing" that makes us different from any mammal on Earth.

It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me.

He sounds a lot like you...bitter against people of faith and eager to disprove them.:Whistle:

Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."

What's it like to be in the silent minority of those who claim to have no faith whatsoever?

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 12:20 AM
I love that quote. Every time I read it I get chills.

Also I apologize for my remarks to Buzzard. I was out of line when I called him a pansy and a fem I got carried away and it wasn't very christ like.


It's all good friend. I hope I didn't offend you with my reply.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 12:32 AM
1) if you used the proper definitions and didnt try to play games I wouldnt have to make assumptions. I'm telling you, standing between the two parties doesnt make you Centrist.

Believe it or not I have actually taken modules in politics at Degree level :rolleyes:

Show me where I stated where I stood in regard to those two parties. I'm willing to bet that you can't. You have again tried to put words into my mouth.

2) You reply without answering the question. its taken about ten bloody pages to get you to answer one simple question. Now...how long is it going to take for you to tell me precisely and CLEARLY where you are on the political spectrum...whats more, I think you do it deliberatley. Your here to play games and waste my time.

Dare I say that you have not asked, but have told me where i stand. I told you my position, yet you want to question it. Quit being so obtuse.

3) I wish everyone would know the Truth...Yes. I wish everyone could have Eternal life...Yes...but I've told you thrice. I CANT force people. It has to be there choice. What part of that do you struggle with :huh:

That's commendable that you wish the best for people.

4) You just dont get it do you! GOD sanctifies a marriage. NOONE BUT GOD. I dont care if the President of The United States performs a marriage ceremony...the fact is, if GOD is not a part of it. It ISNT a marriage in the proper deffinition.

I understand your position, it seems that you don't understand mine. Please link to what you say is the proper definition, and I will respond with a link that states other.

5) Have I forced you or anyone else? :mellow:

Do what you want. Repent and be Saved....or die. The choice is yours, and at the outcome you will have noone but yourself to blame :ninja:

I am going to die regardless of whether I repent or not. Are you only religious because of fear? If there is a God, I think he would have a special place in what you consider hell if your reason for worship is fear.




Again, I apologize profusely if I am offending any, as it is not my desire to do so. I feel that since I am asked to reply back, it is only courteous that I do.

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 12:41 AM
Again, I apologize profusely if I am offending any, as it is not my desire to do so. I feel that since I am asked to reply back, it is only courteous that I do.
Everyone dies Once.

But its completely your choice whether you die Twice or not.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 01:13 AM
1) I have put you in your place. the fact your going into defensive mode prooves it.

"how many years were you held back" is a prime example of you attacking my character rather then my argument. I am begining to get frustrated with your rudeness

If you look, I am questioning your education due to your lack of basic spelling knowledge. You should realize that that isn't an attack on your character. If I were to attack your character, it would be like me calling you a thief, liar, adulterer, or something to that effect. I don't believe you to be any of those. I don't know you and I have no need to attack your character.

2) :laugh: If you were getting along fine with Nathan he wouldnt be one step away from banning you.

Youve yet to answer why you post here...which is my most recent question. I think it will be many pages before you admit to the obvious over that.

Look, I explained why. Can you not read what I have written? I am getting along fine with NateR. I won't make any more jokes, lesson learned. I do hope though that I am not being singled out because of my unpopular opinions.

3) Unfortunately for you I've graduated University with a degree in social sciences, including Psychology, sociology, philosophy, English Lit. I covered things like Philosophy of Science, Philosophy of Religion, Philosophy of Time, Philosophy of Politics, I studied people like Fredrich Nietzsche, Michele Foucault, The History of Sexuality, Power Discourse, I did a little bit of Anthropology and Ethnography in my Dissertation about Symbolism, Violence, aggression, dominance and submission. I studied Military Strategy when the United States invaded Iraq. I studied International Law at the time of Afghanistan, I did about Censorship and Media when Condi Rice tried to Smush Al Jazera. I lived in a majority Islamic City during 9/11 and I lived and worked in the city of London when it was bombed by terrorists as a thankyou gift for supporting the US. I've worked from sorting Waste in a walkin fridge in a supermarket, to leading Processions in Saint Paul's Cathedral infront of Royalty

Trust me when I say. I Know what I am talking about when it comes to Psychology...particularly, when your not even anything unsual for the type who simply wants to disrupt, rather then learn...to attack rather then debate...and someone who is fast becoming most dissagreeable.

Perhaps if you paid more attention to basics, I would value your opinions more. I have problems trusting what you say due to a lack of basic skills. Are you just being lazy? Also, if you would stay on topic and not put words in my mouth, I may take more of what you say into consideration.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like you have an interesting background.


.............

Neezar
04-10-2009, 01:34 AM
If you keep your nose out of others' lives, then you would have nothing to worry about. You don't like it, fine. Leave your religion to those that choose to live by it.
Leave your religion out of the lives of those who don't believe.

That is what we are trying to do...keep our religion out of their lives. :laugh:


Do you want to be forced to believe in Allah and follow the rules of the Muslim faith? Probably not, just like non-believers don't want to be force fed your religion into our lives.

Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.

Great! Now, tell them to keep their homosexuality in their home and out of our churches where it doesn't belong. :w00t:





:Whistle:

Vizion
04-10-2009, 01:46 AM
Ironic how humanists wonder why Christians spend so much time defending ourselves from them.

Yet, they proceed with fervor to insult and assault us as much as they can, questioning our faith, our intelligence, our tolerance and our reason. They mock us in every aspect I just listed as well. This, while threatening to overturn what it is we believe and hold dear to.

Satan truly is alive and well on planet Earth.

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 01:50 AM
Everyone dies Once.

But its completely your choice whether you die Twice or not.

some people have had near death experiences.....i'm just saying:laugh:

Bonnie
04-10-2009, 01:54 AM
Ah, so twice people have made jokes against me saying that I am gay, yet I am the one threatened to be banned because I reply in kind with a joke. Wow.:blink:

How does it work NateR, am I supposed to suck up to you in order to get away with stuff?

If I offended you Crisco, my apologies.

I have a feeling you're past the point of sucking up, make that waayyyy past.

It's either conversion........or........cash. :tongue0011:

Which would you prefer, Nathan? :Whistle:


:laugh:

Bonnie
04-10-2009, 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
If you keep your nose out of others' lives, then you would have nothing to worry about. You don't like it, fine. Leave your religion to those that choose to live by it.
Leave your religion out of the lives of those who don't believe.

That is what we are trying to do...keep our religion out of their lives.


Do you want to be forced to believe in Allah and follow the rules of the Muslim faith? Probably not, just like non-believers don't want to be force fed your religion into our lives.

Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.

Great! Now, tell them to keep their homosexuality in their home and out of our churches where it doesn't belong.


:Whistle: (blue hi-light)

You are priceless you know that! :laugh:

J.B.
04-10-2009, 05:32 AM
Great! Now, tell them to keep their homosexuality in their home and out of our churches where it doesn't belong.

Thank you Bonnie.

As tempting as it can be, I really did not want to feed the troll anymore.

However, this was the exact point I was going to raise when I read Buzzard's reply that ""they are not forcing their values on you". Um...last time I checked MOST people disagree with gay marriage, and America is a democracy, so who is really trying to force their beliefs on others in this situation?

Guess I went and did it anyway...Oh well, eat up.

NateR
04-10-2009, 05:40 AM
Great! Now, tell them to keep their homosexuality in their home and out of our churches where it doesn't belong.

Exactly, what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes is no one's business. BUT they should keep it in the privacy of their homes and not parade it around on the streets.

NateR
04-10-2009, 06:00 AM
Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.

:previous: Actually, that statement defies the First Amendment of the Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

There is nothing in the Constitution that establishes marriage as a civil right.

In fact, there isn't anything in the Constitution that bans discrimination based on sexual preference either... not a single word.

Technically, there isn't anything in the Constitution that bans discrimination based on race or gender either, but it's sort of implied in the amendments that give blacks and women the right to vote (15th and 19th Amendments). However, gays have never been denied the right to vote, so there is no direct correlation between Gay Rights and the Women's Suffrage or Civil Rights movements.

Thus, all the Gay Rights stuff has been forced on us by judicial tyranny... er, activism.

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 06:22 AM
they should keep it in the privacy of their homes and not parade it around on the streets.

or Disneyland. yep, that's right, Disneyland. i was there about 5 years ago and they had a Gay parade/day thing going on there. dudes walking around with chaps on, chains and leashes. kissing in the open. grabbing asses and other behaviors.

NateR
04-10-2009, 06:39 AM
or Disneyland. yep, that's right, Disneyland. i was there about 5 years ago and they had a Gay parade/day thing going on there. dudes walking around with chaps on, chains and leashes. kissing in the open. grabbing asses and other behaviors.

I've heard about that and the thing is they won't even warn families on exactly when those days are. So, a family spends thousands of dollars going to Disneyland only to have their children subjected to public indecency and perversion.

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 06:40 AM
I've heard about that and the thing is they won't even warn families on exactly when those days are.

exactly

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 12:39 PM
.............
1) Its often what Trolls do when they cant face the argument. (note I am not calling you a troll, just saying how your behaviour parralle (yes I know thats speeled wrong) with them) Never mind how I speel words, thats not the issue, nor what we are talking about. Is it cooincodence that you jump to it angrily when you want to avoid the actual topic :huh:

You have great need to attack my character, because you cant attack my argument.

2) :laugh: No, Your not been singled out at all yet. I reply becuase I have something to say to you. But you are rude, and you do attack my character when you cant attack my argument...and we dont tollerate that for too long on this forum.

I suppose I should be grateful you arent namecalling :)

3) What basics are you talking about? So I miss-speel the occasional word, coz I'm typing so quickly. Big Deal. I have shown you my "skill" level in the fields where you questioned them, and academically, they are extremely good for psychology, which I believe was the bone you had to pick.

btw...English Literature...was READING not Writing...I dont claim to be good at speeling :laugh:

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 12:42 PM
some people have had near death experiences.....i'm just saying:laugh:
yes...Astral Projections...but thats not death...its NEAR Death...and its only the First Death :ninja:

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 12:46 PM
chaps on, chains and leashes. kissing in the open. grabbing asses and other behaviors.
:ashamed: whats wrong with that...those fetishes exist in Hetrosexuality also

perticularly young hetro...they just cant stop touching each other...you see it everywhere...the bus stop, the sidewalk...in wal-mart :unsure:

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 06:18 PM
Thank you Bonnie.

As tempting as it can be, I really did not want to feed the troll anymore.

However, this was the exact point I was going to raise when I read Buzzard's reply that ""they are not forcing their values on you". Um...last time I checked MOST people disagree with gay marriage, and America is a democracy, so who is really trying to force their beliefs on others in this situation?

Guess I went and did it anyway...Oh well, eat up.

Since some like to cite the Pledge of Allegiance, what does the pledge say we are? Oh yeah, a republic. As our CONUS states in Article IV Section IV

Section 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Miss Foxy
04-10-2009, 06:20 PM
Since some like to cite the Pledge of Allegiance, what does the pledge say we are? Oh yeah, a [b]republic[/]. As our CONUS states in Article IV Section IV Buzzard because I care.. I am not going to try to pass my beliefs and I am by no means a perfect person, but heres something I want you to have and if you ever need it I promise it will help. Hope you enjoy your weekend. Melissa Marie

You say: 'It's impossible' God says: All things are possible (Luke 18:27)
You say: 'I'm too tired' God says: I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28-30)
You say: 'Nobody really loves me' God says: I love you (John 3:1 6 & John 3:34 )
You say: 'I can't go on' God says: My grace is sufficient (II Corinthians 12:9 & Psalm 91:15)
You say: 'I can't figure things out' God says: I will direct your steps (Proverbs 3:5- 6)
You say: 'I can't do it' God says: You can do all things ( Phil ippians 4:13)
You say: 'I'm not able' God says: I am able (II Corinthians 9:8)
You say: 'It's not worth it' God says: It will be worth it (Roman 8:28 )
You say: 'I can't forgive my self' God says: I Forgive you (I John 1:9 & Romans 8:1)
You say: 'I can't manage' God says: I will supply all your needs ( Phil ippians 4:19)
You say: 'I'm afraid' God says: I have not given you a spirit of fear (II Timothy 1:7)
You say: 'I'm always worried and frustrated' God says: Cast all your cares on ME (I Peter 5:7)
You say: 'I'm not smart enough' God says: I give you wisdom (I Corinthians 1:30)
You say: 'I feel all alone' God says: I will never leave you or forsake you (Hebrews 13:5)

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Exactly, what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes is no one's business. BUT they should keep it in the privacy of their homes and not parade it around on the streets.

I'm not a fan of in your face displays of public affection, whether straight or gay.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 06:58 PM
1) Its often what Trolls do when they cant face the argument. (note I am not calling you a troll, just saying how your behaviour parralle (yes I know thats speeled wrong) with them) Never mind how I speel words, thats not the issue, nor what we are talking about. Is it cooincodence that you jump to it angrily when you want to avoid the actual topic :huh:

You have great need to attack my character, because you cant attack my argument.

Quote me where I have attacked your character. Do you even know what an attack on your character is? I ask this not to be rude, but I truly think that you don't.

2) :laugh: No, Your not been singled out at all yet. I reply becuase I have something to say to you. But you are rude, and you do attack my character when you cant attack my argument...and we dont tollerate that for too long on this forum.

I suppose I should be grateful you arent namecalling :)

Actually, I was singled out in regard to a ban threat when I was the only one threatened with it, when two others made jokes as well. It's all good though, lesson learned and I wasn't offended by the jokes directed towards me.

I have debated your arguments, but you choose to ignore that and put words in my mouth.

3) What basics are you talking about? So I miss-speel the occasional word, coz I'm typing so quickly. Big Deal. I have shown you my "skill" level in the fields where you questioned them, and academically, they are extremely good for psychology, which I believe was the bone you had to pick.

btw...English Literature...was READING not Writing...I dont claim to be good at speeling :laugh:

You seem to have trouble with the concept of not putting words into my mouth. Where did I state anything about English Literature? Please stop ascribing false statements to me. You have stated that you studied, but you haven't shown that you have skills in those areas. I'll give you credit, you do seem to have quite a bit of knowledge in the religion department, I would be lying if I said otherwise.

Take it how you will Tyburn, but unless you quit putting words in my mouth, I feel no need to continue this conversation with you. I don't like to play these stupid games.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 07:00 PM
Buzzard because I care.. I am not going to try to pass my beliefs and I am by no means a perfect person, but heres something I want you to have and if you ever need it I promise it will help. Hope you enjoy your weekend. Melissa Marie

You say: 'It's impossible' God says: All things are possible (Luke 18:27)
You say: 'I'm too tired' God says: I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28-30)
You say: 'Nobody really loves me' God says: I love you (John 3:1 6 & John 3:34 )
You say: 'I can't go on' God says: My grace is sufficient (II Corinthians 12:9 & Psalm 91:15)
You say: 'I can't figure things out' God says: I will direct your steps (Proverbs 3:5- 6)
You say: 'I can't do it' God says: You can do all things ( Phil ippians 4:13)
You say: 'I'm not able' God says: I am able (II Corinthians 9:8)
You say: 'It's not worth it' God says: It will be worth it (Roman 8:28 )
You say: 'I can't forgive my self' God says: I Forgive you (I John 1:9 & Romans 8:1)
You say: 'I can't manage' God says: I will supply all your needs ( Phil ippians 4:19)
You say: 'I'm afraid' God says: I have not given you a spirit of fear (II Timothy 1:7)
You say: 'I'm always worried and frustrated' God says: Cast all your cares on ME (I Peter 5:7)
You say: 'I'm not smart enough' God says: I give you wisdom (I Corinthians 1:30)
You say: 'I feel all alone' God says: I will never leave you or forsake you (Hebrews 13:5)


Thank you Melissa. I hope that you have a great weekend too.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 07:07 PM
It's a shame that this "education" your speaking off is the source of your disbelief...

In your educated opinion

How did life begin? Why did life begin? Do you believe in the big bang theory?


In regard to your first two questions, I can honestly say that I don't know. We may never know the answer to those questions, but it shouldn't stop us from looking for the answers.

As for the question about the Big Bang Theory, I can't say that I believe or disbelieve it right now as my knowledge in this area is limited. I do think that the theory of it is possible.

Bonnie
04-10-2009, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzard
If you keep your nose out of others' lives, then you would have nothing to worry about. You don't like it, fine. Leave your religion to those that choose to live by it.
Leave your religion out of the lives of those who don't believe.

That is what we are trying to do...keep our religion out of their lives.


Do you want to be forced to believe in Allah and follow the rules of the Muslim faith? Probably not, just like non-believers don't want to be force fed your religion into our lives.

Keep your religion in your home and churches where it belongs.

Great! Now, tell them to keep their homosexuality in their home and out of our churches where it doesn't belong.




You are priceless you know that! :laugh: (Please NOTE: Nezzar's response to Buzzard's post are in blue highlights) I screwed up the post when trying to get both his post and her "response" together--sorry!


Whoa, guys, I didn't say that, Nezzar (Denise) said the quoted "blue" highlighted parts. That's why I put (blue hi-light) next to her name at the bottom. My quote was about Nezzar being "priceless".


I loved it! Nezzar's great--I love her quick wit and smarts! :ninja:

I hope I've cleared the confusion as to who said what. I was just giving her :happy0159: for what SHE said (not me).

So y'all give Nezzar the credit! :happydancing:

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Since some like to cite the Pledge of Allegiance, what does the pledge say we are? Oh yeah, a republic. As our CONUS states in Article IV Section IV
Technically, your actually a Federal Republic...but never mind :)

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Take it how you will Tyburn, but unless you quit putting words in my mouth, I feel no need to continue this conversation with you. I don't like to play these stupid games.
1) You tried to make me look dumb, by pointing out my speeling mistakes. This is not attacking my argument, it is attacking me. The Logic is, if I cant speel properly, how can I be clever enough to put forward to truthful argument. Thus you try to discredit NOT the argument, but the person who states the argument.

That IS an attack on my character

2) Thats because the other people are known to us. They post regularly, everyday, they contribute well, they are polite. You appear from nowhere and mess around rather then answering questions we put to you.

You dont seem to understand, this place isnt a democrasy, YOU dont get to cite anything to us, because Nathan and Matt make up the rules and the buck stops with them.

Its Matts site, his personal property because he pays for it to exist. Therefore, he can do whatever he wants. If you dont like it and feel singled out, you can either stick with it, or go away.

3) What do you want...copies of my papers that proove without question that I have the skills to know what I'm talking about :huh:

I know you didnt mention Literature...I thought I'd just throw in that it didnt cover speeling...since my poor speeling seemed to make you cry.

NateR
04-10-2009, 08:25 PM
Technically, your actually a Federal Republic...but never mind :)

A 'Federal Republic with Democratic Tradition' to be exact. :laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 09:24 PM
:ashamed: whats wrong with that...those fetishes exist in Hetrosexuality also

perticularly young hetro...they just cant stop touching each other...you see it everywhere...the bus stop, the sidewalk...in wal-mart :unsure:

1.) what's wrong is that it's gay....

2.) and doing the things they did at Disneyland isn't something you see in public, straight or not. they were right in the open, walking down the streets, it wasn't off in some corner.

3.) straights don't have parades promoting their sexuality in public, Disneyland or not.

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 09:46 PM
A 'Federal Republic with Democratic Tradition' to be exact. :laugh:
:laugh: indeed.

a far cry from "Republic" Buzzard really must learn to be more....clear :laugh:

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 09:53 PM
1.) what's wrong is that it's gay....

2.) and doing the things they did at Disneyland isn't something you see in public, straight or not. they were right in the open, walking down the streets, it wasn't off in some corner.

3.) straights don't have parades promoting their sexuality in public, Disneyland or not.
Its not strictly homosexual. The fetishes exist in hetro also. However...I aggree that Gay Pride marches are crude, particularly if targeted at areas with lots of Children, thats just vulgar...but looks around you andreas...lots of hetro couples make out in public. just not enmass altogether, and not for promotional purposes.

Miss Foxy
04-10-2009, 09:57 PM
Its not strictly homosexual. The fetishes exist in hetro also. However...I aggree that Gay Pride marches are crude, particularly if targeted at areas with lots of Children, thats just vulgar...but looks around you andreas...lots of hetro couples make out in public. just not enmass altogether, and not for promotional purposes.
To be honest the only time I see straight couples making out wildly are in bars/clubs. If I am at Disneyland I might see a couple sneak a kiss, but its a loving kiss that children should see mommy and daddy do. Its not done in a perverted manner.

NateR
04-10-2009, 10:00 PM
Its not strictly homosexual. The fetishes exist in hetro also. However...I aggree that Gay Pride marches are crude, particularly if targeted at areas with lots of Children, thats just vulgar...but looks around you andreas...lots of hetro couples make out in public. just not enmass altogether, and not for promotional purposes.

I think it's a little disgraceful for even heterosexual couples to make out in public. Hugging, holding hands and some kissing are fine, but people should control their sexual urges while in public places.

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 10:01 PM
I think it's a little disgraceful for even heterosexual couples to make out in public. Hugging, holding hands and some kissing are fine, but people should control their sexual urges while in public places.
hugging and holding hands...yes

kissing...its like..GET A ROOM :laugh:

VCURamFan
04-10-2009, 10:02 PM
I think it's a little disgraceful for even heterosexual couples to make out in public. Hugging, holding hands and some kissing are fine, but people should control their sexual urges while in public places...especially at bonfires.:Whistle::laugh:

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 10:21 PM
To be honest the only time I see straight couples making out wildly are in bars/clubs. If I am at Disneyland I might see a couple sneak a kiss, but its a loving kiss that children should see mommy and daddy do. Its not done in a perverted manner.

exactly my point. maybe i wasn't specific enough but they weren't just hugging and kissing. if a straight couple was doing what they did, i would be against it too. unfortunately, gays seem to like flaunting their sexuality in exaggerated fashions....and in family oriented places.

Hughes_GOAT
04-10-2009, 10:23 PM
Its not strictly homosexual. The fetishes exist in hetro also. However...

i understand that but like i said in my last post, it was more than just kissing.

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 10:41 PM
1) You tried to make me look dumb, by pointing out my speeling mistakes. This is not attacking my argument, it is attacking me. The Logic is, if I cant speel properly, how can I be clever enough to put forward to truthful argument. Thus you try to discredit NOT the argument, but the person who states the argument.

That IS an attack on my character

You make yourself look uneducated all by yourself due to your lack of basic writing skills. It is attacking those skills, not your character. Did you skip class on that day?:tongue0011: I do debate you on the arguments, you somehow fail to see that when you go off on your tirades. They are interesting to say the least.

2) Thats because the other people are known to us. They post regularly, everyday, they contribute well, they are polite. You appear from nowhere and mess around rather then answering questions we put to you.

I guarantee you I appeared from somewhere. I also have contributed well, though you disagree with the opinions I have expressed. For crying out loud, again, what questions haven't I answered? Your childish games are beneath you.

You dont seem to understand, this place isnt a democrasy, YOU dont get to cite anything to us, because Nathan and Matt make up the rules and the buck stops with them.

Never did I say it was a democracy. I will state my opinions and participate. Are you unsure of your opinions because of the opinions I have expressed and would rather silence my voice than explore the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you don't have all of the answers as you claim to have?

Its Matts site, his personal property because he pays for it to exist. Therefore, he can do whatever he wants. If you dont like it and feel singled out, you can either stick with it, or go away.

I have never stated otherwise. Why is it when you are challenged you reply with childish remarks such as "If you dont like it and feel singled out, you can either stick with it, or go away."?


3) What do you want...copies of my papers that proove without question that I have the skills to know what I'm talking about :huh:

Copies of your papers wouldn't mean a thing. They advance kids here that don't make the grade all of the time.

I know you didnt mention Literature...I thought I'd just throw in that it didnt cover speeling...since my poor speeling seemed to make you cry.

How about you quit putting or implying to put words in my mouth then?


........

Buzzard
04-10-2009, 11:07 PM
:laugh: indeed.

a far cry from "Republic" Buzzard really must learn to be more....clear :laugh:

So now you're questioning the direct quote from the constitution and the words of our Pledge of Allegiance. Priceless!

Neezar
04-10-2009, 11:16 PM
I loved it! Nezzar's great--I love her quick wit and smarts! :ninja:

I hope I've cleared the confusion as to who said what. I was just giving her :happy0159: for what SHE said (not me).

So y'all give Nezzar the credit! :happydancing:

No worries, Bonnie! I'm just glad that someone sees where I am coming from. :laugh:

Tyburn
04-10-2009, 11:35 PM
So now you're questioning the direct quote from the constitution and the words of our Pledge of Allegiance. Priceless!
Nope not questioning the American Constitution.

Just questioning you. :laugh:

Tyburn
04-14-2009, 01:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6W_V5KFuU

I spend most of my blog this week talking about Buzzard and this thread...so I thought I'd post it here...to sorta close my interaction really I guess

Buzzard
04-14-2009, 08:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6W_V5KFuU

I spend most of my blog this week talking about Buzzard and this thread...so I thought I'd post it here...to sorta close my interaction really I guess

How nice, I must have really struck a chord with you. I can't believe that I wasted 9 minutes. I want them back. Of the five views, I believe one was mine and the other four were yours Tyburn.

The question you again state that I didn't answer, was answered and you know it. You are blatantly dishonest but I've come to expect that.

Just because you declare yourself the winner doesn't make it so.

Tyburn
04-14-2009, 08:23 PM
How nice, I must have really struck a chord with you. I can't believe that I wasted 9 minutes. I want them back. Of the five views, I believe one was mine and the other four were yours Tyburn.

The question you again state that I didn't answer, was answered and you know it. You are blatantly dishonest but I've come to expect that.

Just because you declare yourself the winner doesn't make it so.
:laugh: :laugh:

Dont be silly....I've looked at it more then four times :mellow:

:happydancing: Glad you enjoyed it :)

Chris F
04-15-2009, 12:53 AM
How is allowing gay marriage infringing on YOUR right to worship? Will you still be allowed to worship? Yes. Can you still pray? Yes. Can you discriminate? No. Aw, that's too bad on the last one.

It seems like you sir need the civics lesson, and perhaps a lesson on compassion, brotherhood, love, respect and tolerance for those that are different from you.

I have showed you several times already. Churches will be sued becaue they refuse to hold service on their property which indeed infringes on the right to free excersise of said worship.

I have no problem wiht them having DOmestic partnerships. That sir is very tolerant. What is intolerant is demanding rights that are not expressed by original intent.

Buzzard
04-21-2009, 06:15 PM
Interesting opinion piece. The letters that follow are interesting too.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/04/20/gay_marriage/index.html?source=newsletter

CAVEMAN
04-22-2009, 10:12 PM
Interesting article.......after reading it though, I'm still not sure the writer knows where he/she sits on the issue.

For me it is a biblical truth viewpoint. Why should I condone something my GOD does not?

The only right gay and lesbians are wanting is the right to live in sexual immorality and have it be excepted by the majority. But just so you know, I am against all sexual immorality, whether it be pre-marital sex or adultery. I don't believe that people who have cheated in a previous marriage should be able to marry again. I don't think that a man and a woman should live together without being married. GOD clearly addresses these issues in his WORD along with homosexuality. If the LORD condemns it, who am I or you to say otherwise?

Buzzard
04-22-2009, 11:33 PM
Interesting article.......after reading it though, I'm still not sure the writer knows where he/she sits on the issue.

For me it is a biblical truth viewpoint. Why should I condone something my GOD does not?

The only right gay and lesbians are wanting is the right to live in sexual immorality and have it be excepted by the majority. But just so you know, I am against all sexual immorality, whether it be pre-marital sex or adultery. I don't believe that people who have cheated in a previous marriage should be able to marry again. I don't think that a man and a woman should live together without being married. GOD clearly addresses these issues in his WORD along with homosexuality. If the LORD condemns it, who am I or you to say otherwise?

I disagree, but you knew that was coming. It is nice to know that you are against all sexual immorality. Besides Leviticus, where else does the bible talk against homosexuality? I am asking because I really don't know, and don't feel like going through the million hits I would get on google.

Thanks for the responses.

Tyburn
04-22-2009, 11:37 PM
Besides Leviticus, where else does the bible talk against homosexuality?

Thanks for the responses.
The Epistle of Saint Paul the Apostle to The Church of The Romans :)

Buzzard
04-22-2009, 11:46 PM
The Epistle of Saint Paul the Apostle to The Church of The Romans :)

Thanks, I'll have to check it out. Any specific parts, it's been awhile since I read the whole thing, and that was a long read.

Tyburn
04-22-2009, 11:54 PM
Thanks, I'll have to check it out. Any specific parts, it's been awhile since I read the whole thing, and that was a long read.
if memory serves...you'll have to excuse me...I have my mouthful of fish and cant really handle my Bible at present....its near the start of the letter :laugh:

J.B.
04-23-2009, 01:14 AM
you'll have to excuse me...I have my mouthful of fish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bJOIqVAD-s

NateR
04-23-2009, 01:46 AM
Romans 1: 18-32 (emphasis added)
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

CAVEMAN
04-23-2009, 05:47 PM
And just for due diligence Buzzard, another translation:


NKJV

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

CAVEMAN
04-23-2009, 05:55 PM
Let also not forget Genesis Chapter 19:


Sodom’s Depravity
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”
And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”
3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”
6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that he[a] said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed.”
18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”
21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”
Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.

rearnakedchoke
04-23-2009, 07:12 PM
And just for due diligence Buzzard, another translation:


NKJV

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Not that what you are saying is incorrect, but your idea of marriage is a Christian value which should be kept separate from what the state defines as marriage .. in that case, marriage between porn stars, escorts, prostitutes etc do not meet the Christian definition of marriage, so they should all be rescinded and not allowed .. since that won't happen, the state needs to allow gay marriages to be legal .. As Christians we don't like it and don't have to recognize them

Crisco
04-23-2009, 07:16 PM
Not that what you are saying is incorrect, but your idea of marriage is a Christian value which should be kept separate from what the state defines as marriage .. in that case, marriage between porn stars, escorts, prostitutes etc do not meet the Christian definition of marriage, so they should all be rescinded and not allowed .. since that won't happen, the state needs to allow gay marriages to be legal .. As Christians we don't like it and don't have to recognize them

Two wrongs don't make a right. Because those people are married doesn't mean we need to pass a law to make gays married. That's like saying well some rapists get off because of lawyer gibberish so lets let all of the bastards go free.

Two men or Two women cannot be married before God. Marriage belongs to God. The civil union belongs to the state.

I'm all for equal treatment.

Get all the benefits you want take your civil union and STFU.

rearnakedchoke
04-23-2009, 07:30 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right. Because those people are married doesn't mean we need to pass a law to make gays married. That's like saying well some rapists get off because of lawyer gibberish so lets let all of the bastards go free.

Two men or Two women cannot be married before God. Marriage belongs to God. The civil union belongs to the state.

I'm all for equal treatment.

Get all the benefits you want take your civil union and STFU.
but how can marriage be for God if you can get married in a temple, mosque etc? is God recognizing them?

Crisco
04-23-2009, 07:40 PM
but how can marriage be for God if you can get married in a temple, mosque etc? is God recognizing them?

Not sure I'm not God.

But if I was I sure is heck wouldn't recognize the marriage of something I see as an abomination.

Thats besides the issue. Our laws have no effect on God. What this arguement is about is the government taking OUR ceremony OUR bond and forcing us to accept its perversion by a government we pay taxes too.

The world which is the only thing two marrying gays care about has given them a Civil Union.

They don't need our Marriages they are just trying to stick it to the faithful for having morals. IF all they cared about was benefits they should petition for civil unions to include full marital benefits but that their unions be called marriages. It's a direct insult to Christianity.

Tyburn
04-23-2009, 07:50 PM
but how can marriage be for God if you can get married in a temple, mosque etc? is God recognizing them?
Well, the Christians and Jews worship the same GOD, The Islamists believe they worship the same GOD as us, but he disowned them in favour of the Jews, when he gave Jacob the birthright and not Ishmail...or something along those lines

The rest of them are almost certainly not legitamized by GOD..

So Christians and Jews for certain, Islam almost certainly not...and definately not for any other religion, or no religion, or single-sexed partnerships, or some forms of incest, or anything to do with animals whatsoever.

He doesnt like adultory, he doesnt like sexual relations outside of marriage, he doesnt like promescuity, he doesnt like homosexuality or any such sexual perversion or deviation. Neither does he like Co-habitation

Strictly speaking, he only permits devorce in the case of adultory...and thats only because the adultorer would be killed, thus the marriage annulled.

In certain circumstances he doesnt mind polyigamy (Particularly within the Jewish side of things (they have less revelation, including nothing on Jesus, thus the symbology of one man and one woman, is lost on them, and providing the man looks after and cares for all his wives, in the Old Testament he didnt seem to mind to much), He also doesnt mind certain things we might consider incest. Although he doesnt like the marrying of brothers, sisters, I think he's alright with cousins...which in this society, we dont tollerate....at least not as close as they did during the Biblical era.

He is silent on the issue of re-marrying, but one presumes that is possible if the marriage is annulled by the death of one of the people.

rearnakedchoke
04-23-2009, 08:01 PM
Well, the Christians and Jews worship the same GOD, The Islamists believe they worship the same GOD as us, but he disowned them in favour of the Jews, when he gave Jacob the birthright and not Ishmail...or something along those lines

The rest of them are almost certainly not legitamized by GOD..

So Christians and Jews for certain, Islam almost certainly not...and definately not for any other religion, or no religion, or single-sexed partnerships, or some forms of incest, or anything to do with animals whatsoever.

He doesnt like adultory, he doesnt like sexual relations outside of marriage, he doesnt like promescuity, he doesnt like homosexuality or any such sexual perversion or deviation. Neither does he like Co-habitation

Strictly speaking, he only permits devorce in the case of adultory...and thats only because the adultorer would be killed, thus the marriage annulled.

In certain circumstances he doesnt mind polyigamy (Particularly within the Jewish side of things (they have less revelation, including nothing on Jesus, thus the symbology of one man and one woman, is lost on them, and providing the man looks after and cares for all his wives, in the Old Testament he didnt seem to mind to much), He also doesnt mind certain things we might consider incest. Although he doesnt like the marrying of brothers, sisters, I think he's alright with cousins...which in this society, we dont tollerate....at least not as close as they did during the Biblical era.

He is silent on the issue of re-marrying, but one presumes that is possible if the marriage is annulled by the death of one of the people.
right, so why are people who get married in buddhist or hindu temples allowed to be married?

Crisco
04-23-2009, 08:13 PM
right, so why are people who get married in buddhist or hindu temples allowed to be married?

A marriage between a man and a woman can be saved.

A marriage between the same-sex can never be saved.

A gay marriage doesn't fit any of the criteria to exist as a holy marriage.

They love each other they live together they are a union not a married couple. For the government to demand that we accept their union as anything more then a union is a spit in the face.

Tyburn
04-23-2009, 08:53 PM
right, so why are people who get married in buddhist or hindu temples allowed to be married?
Well no other religion demands to use Christian Buildings for its ceremony does it?

I dont think the Church would care if the Homosexuals created their own "Church" to get married in.

But thats not whats going on. Other Religions get married in their own way...they do NOT demand that CHRISTIANS marry them.

No...only Heathern and Homosexuals do that...figures they dont even have the faith to marry on their own terms like a Hindu or something...they have to try and encrouch on OUR Faith....Well its not a Christion Wedding...so they should...quite frankly...go build their own nasty worship place and be married there

What would Islam say if the Christians said they had a right to be married in a Mosque?? Would a Church Marry two Islamists???

No...well...Homosexuals and Heathen should get married at pagen places of worship...since that is essentially what faith they usually are.

Neezar
04-23-2009, 11:06 PM
Well no other religion demands to use Christian Buildings for its ceremony does it?

I dont think the Church would care if the Homosexuals created their own "Church" to get married in.

But thats not whats going on. Other Religions get married in their own way...they do NOT demand that CHRISTIANS marry them.

No...only Heathern and Homosexuals do that...figures they dont even have the faith to marry on their own terms like a Hindu or something...they have to try and encrouch on OUR Faith....Well its not a Christion Wedding...so they should...quite frankly...go build their own nasty worship place and be married there

What would Islam say if the Christians said they had a right to be married in a Mosque?? Would a Church Marry two Islamists???

No...well...Homosexuals and Heathen should get married at pagen places of worship...since that is essentially what faith they usually are.

:laugh:

Miss Foxy
04-23-2009, 11:13 PM
Interesting article.......after reading it though, I'm still not sure the writer knows where he/she sits on the issue.

For me it is a biblical truth viewpoint. Why should I condone something my GOD does not?

The only right gay and lesbians are wanting is the right to live in sexual immorality and have it be excepted by the majority. But just so you know, I am against all sexual immorality, whether it be pre-marital sex or adultery. I don't believe that people who have cheated in a previous marriage should be able to marry again. I don't think that a man and a woman should live together without being married. GOD clearly addresses these issues in his WORD along with homosexuality. If the LORD condemns it, who am I or you to say otherwise?
Then your definitely against me....:cool:

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 12:52 AM
:laugh:
:ashamed:

Buzzard
04-24-2009, 02:23 AM
Two wrongs don't make a right. Because those people are married doesn't mean we need to pass a law to make gays married. That's like saying well some rapists get off because of lawyer gibberish so lets let all of the bastards go free.

Two men or Two women cannot be married before God. Marriage belongs to God. The civil union belongs to the state.

I'm all for equal treatment.

Get all the benefits you want take your civil union and STFU.

Anger, fear, aggression... the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

Buzzard
04-24-2009, 04:09 AM
Well no other religion demands to use Christian Buildings for its ceremony does it?

Who is demanding to use the Christian buildings? Any lists of the masses who want to use the buildings and are threatening to sue if they aren't allowed?

I dont think the Church would care if the Homosexuals created their own "Church" to get married in.

So here you are now saying that it should be okay for them to be married as long as it isn't in your church. I thought you said that the church owned the term and concept of marriage. Nice back-pedal.

But thats not whats going on. Other Religions get married in their own way...they do NOT demand that CHRISTIANS marry them.

Does your church have the ability to deny a marriage request from people of a different religion? Do they get sued because of exercising their choice in whether to marry them or not?


No...only Heathern and Homosexuals do that...figures they dont even have the faith to marry on their own terms like a Hindu or something...they have to try and encrouch on OUR Faith....Well its not a Christion Wedding...so they should...quite frankly...go build their own nasty worship place and be married there

The more you ramble, the more your arguments look weak and contradict prior statements which you have made.

What would Islam say if the Christians said they had a right to be married in a Mosque?? Would a Church Marry two Islamists???

Different argument. Again, the argument isn't for them to be married in your church, but to be allowed to be married period. I'll ask again, has your church refused to marry someone of a different faith, or a divorced person? Have they been brought to trial and lost?

No...well...Homosexuals and Heathen should get married at pagen places of worship...since that is essentially what faith they usually are.

You yourself claim to be a Christian, and a homosexual one to boot. Do you think that you are only one of a few homosexual beings that happens to believe in the Christian faith?



...

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 01:10 PM
...
1) It would be their legal right to sue if a Church refused to marry non Christians in a Christian Wedding...yes.

2) No. I'm not saying its okay. They have free will to marry who they want, They have free will to sin, thats a GOD given right. However, they have no place in the Church. The Church doesnt like homosexual unions full stop...but it wont become militant unless the homosexuals start invading the church...which is what they are doing by forceing Christians into marrying them in Church...thats just plain wrong...as wrong as it would be to lock up all homosexuals like that state used to do. The Church owns the definition of marriage...but people will use the term to mean what they want to...and are free to pervert it as much as they want to outside the church...because GOD doesnt pay them any dues. But when they step into the House of GOD and pervert it. Thats bloody rude. Its actually a form of desicration. Its a form of utter disrespect...and that just might make him really angry....and angry at the church aswell if they dont stand up for what is right and tell those sodomites and Heathen to politely piss off

3) Our Church has, and would never be, requested to. Yes the Church can refuse certain marriages...but there has to be an extremely good reason for it. If they started doing that to homosexuals...it would become absolutely obvious that it was due to the sexuality, even if they tried to deny it.

4) You dont like it when I talk about someone like you do you? A non-believer....someone who is not saved...someone who is effectively damning themselves :sad: But there is nothing I can do to help you. I've told you the truth...if you reject it...thats your right. :unsure-1:

5) Again I tell you, noone of a different religion wishes to get married in a church, i've never heard of it being requested. The Roman Catholic Church used to refuse to marry people who were devorced, (at least until the person they had devorced had died) because Devorce is the end of a legal contract...its not the end of a spiritual marriage. Someone has to die for that to happen (with the exception possibly of adultory because the other person deserves to die according to the law in that sense) To marry them again would be to marry someone who, regardless of the law, the Roman Catholics recognise as already married.

The Church doesnt accept polygami

6) Well, I dont practise...so I dont sin. Nothing can help with the feelings of attraction for an SSA sufferer...but we DO have a choice whether to act on it or not. I Dont really call myself homosexual so much now, because it implies I practise, when I dont. I prefer the term SSA, because it says I suffer from an attraction, but there is not an emphasis on practise. I will say that in my past however I was a homosexual in every sense of the word....but not any more

There are plenty of celebate Homosexuals in the church who are not living in sin. There are liberal Churches that will support them and make them feel special and loved in a shallow kinda way without condoning the practising.

There are many that consider themselves Christians, but still practise, figuring as it is no worse then any other sin, and as the feel like they cant help it. So long as they repent every so often... I dont aggree with that, but I have been there.

So, there are many liberal Christians who pick and choose their scriptures, or try and find excuses to let them sin, and are homosexuals who would call themself Christian....but I'm not one of them.

I'd share more...but firstly, its not a topic of conversation that this site likes me to indulge of to be honnest, and secondly, as I dont believe you're here to learn, I dont see why I should go into details about my experiences, or what I think specifically about the topic of Homosexuality generically and Christianity....We're talking about specific Homosexuals getting married in a church.

It DID happen once, in London sinse it was legalized.

It was to homosexual Priests getting married. :unsure:

Neezar
04-24-2009, 03:51 PM
13) Our Church has, and would never be, requested to. Yes the Church can refuse certain marriages...but there has to be an extremely good reason for it. If they started doing that to homosexuals...it would become absolutely obvious that it was due to the sexuality, even if they tried to deny it.


Around here they don't have to have a good reason to refuse to marry you. In fact, they don't have to give a reason at all. If you go to a courthouse to just have a legal marriage performed then they do have to have a reason but not the church. The pastor who married me and my husband did not agree to it initially. We met with him many times and after getting to know us and counselling us a bit he agreed to perform the service. :cool:




There are plenty of celebate Homosexuals in the church who are not living in sin. There are liberal Churches that will support them and make them feel special and loved in a shallow kinda way without condoning the practising.



Interesting choice of words. :ninja:

Crisco
04-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Anger, fear, aggression... the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

You don't have to be angry to tell someone to STFU.

I don't feel you can marry the same-sex. I don't want my government who I pay taxes too saying that you can.

It's plain and simple.

I said it before we all know your the cool guy liberal who makes all the red necks look stupid because they have faith in a make believe God.

We all know your not here to learn, you like to take witty jabs when you can and see how much you can covertly disrespect Christianity before Nate throws you out on your ass.

CAVEMAN
04-24-2009, 04:05 PM
Then your definitely against me....:cool:

That is between you and the LORD, Foxy!:) Not my place to judge, I'm just to speak the truth in love. Does not mean I see you as lesser of a person. We all have our struggles.......:cool:

CAVEMAN
04-24-2009, 04:09 PM
Well no other religion demands to use Christian Buildings for its ceremony does it?

I dont think the Church would care if the Homosexuals created their own "Church" to get married in.

But thats not whats going on. Other Religions get married in their own way...they do NOT demand that CHRISTIANS marry them.

No...only Heathern and Homosexuals do that...figures they dont even have the faith to marry on their own terms like a Hindu or something...they have to try and encrouch on OUR Faith....Well its not a Christion Wedding...so they should...quite frankly...go build their own nasty worship place and be married there

What would Islam say if the Christians said they had a right to be married in a Mosque?? Would a Church Marry two Islamists???

No...well...Homosexuals and Heathen should get married at pagen places of worship...since that is essentially what faith they usually are.

Dead on!:)

Buzzard
04-24-2009, 06:34 PM
You don't have to be angry to tell someone to STFU.

I don't feel you can marry the same-sex. I don't want my government who I pay taxes too saying that you can.

It's plain and simple.

I said it before we all know your the cool guy liberal who makes all the red necks look stupid because they have faith in a make believe God.

We all know your not here to learn, you like to take witty jabs when you can and see how much you can covertly disrespect Christianity before Nate throws you out on your ass.

What witty jabs have I taken against Christianity? You just can't seem to be able to make any type of intelligent response to questions asked, instead trying to deflect your issues upon myself. You telling someone to STFU is telling them to STFU, nothing else. No matter how you try to bypass the cuss filter, it still says what it does. You seem to disrespect your religion much more than I ever have with the ways in which you carry yourself.

If you think I make rednecks and yourself look stupid, that is all on you and how you perceive them and yourself, not me. Again, don't go deflecting your opinions of others onto me. They're yours, not mine. I have not once called anyone on this board a redneck, yet you have lumped them all under that label.

Have a wonderful day!

Neezar
04-24-2009, 06:43 PM
What witty jabs have I taken against Christianity? You just can't seem to be able to make any type of intelligent response to questions asked, instead trying to deflect your issues upon myself. You telling someone to STFU is telling them to STFU, nothing else. No matter how you try to bypass the cuss filter, it still says what it does. You seem to disrespect your religion much more than I ever have with the ways in which you carry yourself.

If you think I make rednecks and yourself look stupid, that is all on you and how you perceive them and yourself, not me. Again, don't go deflecting your opinions of others onto me. They're yours, not mine. I have not once called anyone on this board a redneck, yet you have lumped them all under that label.

Have a wonderful day!

Hey! :w00t: I just recognized you! Welcome back. Hope you are faring well. But I can't seem to remember exactly what the circumstances were as to why you left before. Hmm, I will have to think on that. I miss the old forums, don't you? :unsure-1:

Denise

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 06:54 PM
1) Around here they don't have to have a good reason to refuse to marry you. In fact, they don't have to give a reason at all. If you go to a courthouse to just have a legal marriage performed then they do have to have a reason but not the church. The pastor who married me and my husband did not agree to it initially. We met with him many times and after getting to know us and counselling us a bit he agreed to perform the service. :cool:





2) Interesting choice of words. :ninja:
1) Well you dont have Church and State combined like we do. See the Church of England Ministers act as Legal Registrars for the Crown aswell. In Matters of Birth, Death and Marriage, The Church and the State are inseparable. Thats why Records of Baptism and such likes are held at Summer Set House. They are LEGAL records as well as Spiritual. (The Church is unable to De-Baptize you for this reason! They recently had a man who was infant baptized saying that he wanted to have his infant baptism annulled. They told him that they could replace his Record of Baptism with a record saying that he didnt aggree with it...but what they couldnt do was delete the record...because it was a legal record....all they could do was to add to his already existing baptism record...he wanted NO baptism record. hahahaha)

This means that EVERY person, Every Single Person born in England, lives within the boundaries of some Church which Qualifies for this special State Record level. OTHER Denominations DONT, which is why they need an independant Registrar, That is what happens in a Court or in a Registrars Office. Those people are the Crown without the Church.

Now Our Government is their to provide for its people and to protect its people. What the Government do by connecting with the Church is provide a form of Christianity for any person. Therefore, if someone is turned away from the Anglican Church on the grounds of getting married...its like being...well disowned by the State isnt it? As far as marriage is conerned, the Church of England effectively acts as a subdivision of a Governmental Local Council....Now what would happen if your Council refused to collect your rubbish if you were homosexual?? Because, on a strictly legal sense of the word, that is what would happen if the Church refused someone the right to get married in their parish church.

There are certain rules, like, that you can only marry in your local parish, or in the parish of one of your family, or in any parish that you have lived within the last few years. So when my Sister gets married...she is limited to a choice of a few Church of England Churches (Saint Marks-due to my Father working there) (Saint Peters-because Granville where I live, lies within its parish boundaries) (Christ-Church on the Stray-because my Parents live within its parish boundaries) all from Harrogate (Saint Georges Church-Because my Gran lives within its parish boundaries) from Lincoln. The Parish Churches of Scarborough where her Husbands family live. The parish Churches in which Her and Tiffany live in Leeds.

Now a Good reason would probably only be that they were in some way law breakers, and therefore its a matter of the States descretion as to whether to afford them their rights...OR they are family members involved in incest

2) I've been there also :unsure-1:

Miss Foxy
04-24-2009, 07:13 PM
This thread is boring. Stop making personal attacks on each other. Its retarded. Dang..Lets just bash GSP and call it a day! Please..:wink:

Crisco
04-24-2009, 07:49 PM
What witty jabs have I taken against Christianity? You just can't seem to be able to make any type of intelligent response to questions asked, instead trying to deflect your issues upon myself. You telling someone to STFU is telling them to STFU, nothing else. No matter how you try to bypass the cuss filter, it still says what it does. You seem to disrespect your religion much more than I ever have with the ways in which you carry yourself.

If you think I make rednecks and yourself look stupid, that is all on you and how you perceive them and yourself, not me. Again, don't go deflecting your opinions of others onto me. They're yours, not mine. I have not once called anyone on this board a redneck, yet you have lumped them all under that label.

Have a wonderful day!

I actually forgot what I was fighting with you about. I'm eating some almonds and enjoying some red hot dollar candies.

No matter what I do or say has no effect on this at all.

The gays will get their marriage rights because in terms of earthly law they have a good case to present to a judge..

I'm sorry If I've called you names and I'm sorry you feel I've poorly misrepresented by faith.

I hope this all turns out for the good in someway or another. I concede because in the battle of the earthly and the divine you can't really win the arguement unless one side leans more towards another.

It would seem we are both right to our respective ideals and nothing short of your conversion and God coming into your heart will change your opinion.

Have a good one Buzzard and God bless.

medic92
04-24-2009, 07:50 PM
I hate getting here late, so many posts worthy of replies but just too many to address so I'll just throw my thoughts out there and see what happens.

When the government passes legislation saying MY church has to recognize homosexual marriage, my 1st Amendment right to worship as I see fit has been infringed upon. My church believe homosexual acts are sin and a homosexual relationship is a continual and willing state of sin. My church would never condone, recognize or perform a homosexual marriage because it goes against our religious beliefs. When the government passes legislation saying these marriages have to be recognized and allowed by my church, my 1st Amendment rights have been violated.

God is NOT a hateful God and does not punish anyone for the fun of it. People bring judgment on themselves and get no more than what they deserve. Saying that God is violent or hateful for punishing his children is like saying a parent is hateful for punishing a child who does something wrong.

I couldn't care less about a civil union recognized by the state. I don't agree with it and don't think our country will enjoy God's blessings as long as we keep straying farther from the path of God. Eventually, we as a country will be punished for this straying, and I think we're already seeing God's judgment now. When God removes His blessings from our country because of the rampant immoral and deviant behavior, I AM personally affected by the deviant behavior of others. It's kind of like boot camp where everyone gets punished because one person screws up. We all got punished because it encouraged us to help our fellow recruits when they started to slip. By the same token, we are duty-bound by God to help, encourage AND correct our fellow man when they stray.

Yeah it's a little rambling and disjointed but that's how my posts seem to go.

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 07:53 PM
Lets just bash GSP and call it a day! Please..:wink:
Can I have dibs on Penn please :w00t:

Miss Foxy
04-24-2009, 07:54 PM
Can I have dibs on Penn please :w00t:
LOL no Max will get you!!

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 07:55 PM
LOL no Max will get you!!
:laugh: He could try :laugh:

He's no match for me :rolleyes:

But if we aggree on Serra...at least everyone can contribute I suppose... :laugh:

Miss Foxy
04-24-2009, 07:58 PM
:laugh: He could try :laugh:

He's no match for me :rolleyes:

But if we aggree on Serra...at least everyone can contribute I suppose... :laugh:
Yes!! And if not then they shall go up against an ARMY of Hughes fans!! Serra has been too quiet lately.. Somethings up!?!!

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 08:01 PM
Yes!! And if not then they shall go up against an ARMY of Hughes fans!! Serra has been too quiet lately.. Somethings up!?!!
I suggest you phone up the Federal Government and ask them to ground ALL international Flights, and close ALL seaports....to stop Serra trying to leave the country and avoid his date with Matt Hughes....yep...I reckon he's just the type to run-hide :laugh:

"Come BACK Mr Serra...and take it like a man" :angry:

Crisco
04-24-2009, 08:10 PM
I suggest you phone up the Federal Government and ask them to ground ALL international Flights, and close ALL seaports....to stop Serra trying to leave the country and avoid his date with Matt Hughes....yep...I reckon he's just the type to run-hide :laugh:

"Come BACK Mr Serra...and take it like a man" :angry:

so wrong

Miss Foxy
04-24-2009, 08:11 PM
so wrong
LOL!!! Nothing gets past you, Mike, and Goat huh?!!

Miss Foxy
04-24-2009, 08:16 PM
I actually forgot what I was fighting with you about. I'm eating some almonds and enjoying some red hot dollar candies.

No matter what I do or say has no effect on this at all.

The gays will get their marriage rights because in terms of earthly law they have a good case to present to a judge..

I'm sorry If I've called you names and I'm sorry you feel I've poorly misrepresented by faith.

I hope this all turns out for the good in someway or another. I concede because in the battle of the earthly and the divine you can't really win the arguement unless one side leans more towards another.

It would seem we are both right to our respective ideals and nothing short of your conversion and God coming into your heart will change your opinion.

Have a good one Buzzard and God bless.
Nice post...:rolleyes:

Crisco
04-24-2009, 08:17 PM
LOL!!! Nothing gets past you, Mike, and Goat huh?!!


Me and Mike are P.I.C's

Goat is definately a champ but he's yet to join our crime family. Not sure he wants too.

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 08:58 PM
so wrong

:rolleyes: I meant take the beating obviously.

Crisco
04-24-2009, 09:09 PM
Nice post...:rolleyes:

?

Crisco
04-24-2009, 09:12 PM
:rolleyes: I meant take the beating obviously.

Still wrong

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 09:25 PM
Still wrong
its quite a common phrase in England :mellow:

Crisco
04-24-2009, 09:27 PM
its quite a common phrase in England :mellow:

I'm sure it is David.

Tyburn
04-24-2009, 10:43 PM
I'm sure it is David.
It IS :)

medic92
04-25-2009, 01:36 AM
It IS :)

Next you'll try to convince us that a rubber is an eraser... :)

Buzzard
04-25-2009, 02:14 AM
I hate getting here late, so many posts worthy of replies but just too many to address so I'll just throw my thoughts out there and see what happens.

When the government passes legislation saying MY church has to recognize homosexual marriage, my 1st Amendment right to worship as I see fit has been infringed upon. My church believe homosexual acts are sin and a homosexual relationship is a continual and willing state of sin. My church would never condone, recognize or perform a homosexual marriage because it goes against our religious beliefs. When the government passes legislation saying these marriages have to be recognized and allowed by my church, my 1st Amendment rights have been violated.

Has the government in any state yet said that your church has to recognize homosexual marriage? How has your right to worship been infringed upon by allowing someone to get married? Are you still allowed to go to church, pray, worship? Would you be happy if your church could opt-out, but would lose their tax exempt status? I haven't read anywhere where it says that they will force your church to marry you, just as the Catholic Church can refuse to wed divorced couples, and churches can refuse to wed those of differing faiths.

God is NOT a hateful God and does not punish anyone for the fun of it. People bring judgment on themselves and get no more than what they deserve. Saying that God is violent or hateful for punishing his children is like saying a parent is hateful for punishing a child who does something wrong.

I couldn't care less about a civil union recognized by the state. I don't agree with it and don't think our country will enjoy God's blessings as long as we keep straying farther from the path of God. Eventually, we as a country will be punished for this straying, and I think we're already seeing God's judgment now. When God removes His blessings from our country because of the rampant immoral and deviant behavior, I AM personally affected by the deviant behavior of others. It's kind of like boot camp where everyone gets punished because one person screws up. We all got punished because it encouraged us to help our fellow recruits when they started to slip. By the same token, we are duty-bound by God to help, encourage AND correct our fellow man when they stray.

Yeah it's a little rambling and disjointed but that's how my posts seem to go.

How are you personally affected "by the deviant behavior of others?" I can see how you may be grossed out if you had to watch two gay men going at it or were forced to attend a gay wedding. Are you personally affected by the adultery and other sins of other people enough to make a stand and force them to be kicked out of church or be denied the right to marry the mate of their choice?

My friends and I think two hot women going at it is quite nice.:wink: I'll delete this part of the comment if it offends or is thought of as too crude.

Tyburn
04-25-2009, 12:27 PM
Next you'll try to convince us that a rubber is an eraser... :)
A rubber is what you use to rub out pencil,...yes :)

Crisco
04-27-2009, 01:18 PM
A rubber is what you use to rub out pencil,...yes :)

Yea what else could it possibly be?

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 01:26 PM
Yea what else could it possibly be?
it couldnt be called anything else. We dont use the term eraser.

A rubber is what you rub out stuff with. :)

Crisco
04-27-2009, 01:56 PM
it couldnt be called anything else. We dont use the term eraser.

A rubber is what you rub out stuff with. :)


:laugh:

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 02:12 PM
:laugh:
:blink: thats what we say. a rubber, rubs out pencil :unsure-1:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 02:49 PM
:blink: thats what we say. a rubber, rubs out pencil :unsure-1:

Yep

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 04:05 PM
Yep
:blink: what a perfectly useless conversation we just had :laugh:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 04:08 PM
:blink: what a perfectly useless conversation we just had :laugh:

I enjoyed it.

Tyburn
04-27-2009, 04:20 PM
I enjoyed it.
:laugh: saves me having to ask the rather cliched question "was it good for you :huh: " :laugh:

Crisco
04-27-2009, 04:27 PM
:laugh: saves me having to ask the rather cliched question "was it good for you :huh: " :laugh:

That's nasty

VCURamFan
04-27-2009, 04:43 PM
:blink: thats what we say. a rubber, rubs out pencil :unsure-1:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rubber