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rearnakedchoke
06-10-2013, 03:55 PM
what are everyone's thoughts on this??? is the guy a hero or traitor?

http://us.cnn.com/2013/06/10/politics/nsa-leak/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Hong Kong (CNN) -- Edward Snowden, the man behind one of the biggest leaks in the history of U.S. intelligence, is a former technical assistant for the CIA who is now holed up in a Hong Kong hotel, in danger of running out of money and hoping to find asylum somewhere in the world.

U.S. Rep. Peter King, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee's Subcommittee on Counterterrorism and Intelligence, called Snowden "a defector" who should be turned over to the United States with an eye toward harsh prosecution.

"This person is dangerous to the country," King told CNN's "Starting Point" on Monday.

Snowden, 29, identified himself this weekend in American and British newspapers as the person who exposed details of a top-secret American program that collects vast streams of phone and Internet data.

The revelations have set off a furious debate in the United States about whether the surveillance program is a disturbing form of government overreach or an important tool for intelligence agencies trying to prevent attacks against the nation.
They have also dealt a fresh blow to the Obama administration, which has found itself on the defensive early in the president's second term amid other complaints of intrusions of privacy.
As details of the U.S. government's widespread telecommunications surveillance emerged last week in reports by the British newspaper The Guardian and The Washington Post, speculation built about who the source of the information might be.

Could it be a disgruntled high-ranking official at the National Security Agency, the U.S. electronic intelligence service?

It turned out to be Snowden, who until recently was working as a computer technician for a U.S. Defense contractor.

Snowden told the Guardian he began final preparations for his disclosures three weeks ago, copying documents and telling his boss he needed a few weeks off work for epilepsy treatment before traveling to Hong Kong.

Snowden told the newspaper he walked away from a $200,000 salary with the computer consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton, a comfortable life in Hawaii and his girlfriend for a good reason.

"I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the U.S. government to destroy privacy, Internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building," he said.

He said he chose Hong Kong because of its "spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent," and because he hoped its leaders would resist possible U.S. efforts to extradite him.

Hidden in Hong Kong

It was unclear Monday where Snowden was staying. But the two journalists who wrote the stories for The Guardian based on the information Snowden leaked -- Glenn Greenwald and Ewen MacAskill -- were at the W Hotel in the city's Kowloon district.

"From morning to night he's in his hotel room, has his meals in his room," MacAskill told CNN, declining to give any information about which hotel Snowden is in.

Hotel staff at the W said nobody under Snowden's name was staying there.

Mandy Chan, an employee at the Mira Hotel in the nearby neighborhood of Tsim Sha Tsui, said somebody by the name of Edward Snowden had checked out of the Mira on Monday. She declined to provide further details on his stay.

He has only left his room three times since he arrived in Hong Kong about three weeks ago, MacAskill said, "and that was only briefly."

The cost of living in a hotel is threatening to burn through Snowden's remaining funds, according to MacAskill.
"His credit card is going to max out pretty quickly," he said.

Snowden left the United States for Hong Kong without telling his family or girlfriend where he was going or why. Now he's concerned about the repercussions his actions could have for them.

"The terrible thing is he is worried about his family, that they'll be victimized," MacAskill said. "He's basically cut off from family."

But Snowden acted with full awareness of the possible consequences.

"He's thought this out; he's been thinking about this for a few years," MacAskill said. "He's not impetuous, and this wasn't a hasty decision."

Will he be extradited?

Snowden has not yet been charged with a crime, but a spokesman for the office of the Director of National Intelligence said Sunday the case has been referred to the Justice Department.

An investigation that could lead to charges is certain, said CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

"He's in enormous trouble," Toobin said Monday.

Any U.S. request to extradite him from Hong Kong could be complicated, however.

Although Hong Kong is part of communist-ruled China, the former British colony has a free press and tolerates political dissent under a semi-autonomous government.

Hong Kong's extradition treaty with the United States has exceptions for political crimes and cases when handing over a criminal suspect would harm the "defense, foreign affairs or essential public interest or policy" of either party.

"I think he looked around, this seemed the safest bet," MacAskill said.

Snowden hopes to get asylum, he added, with Iceland his first choice because of the way it dealt with Wikileaks.

Iceland is one of the countries that offered a degree of legal protection to Wikileaks, a group that facilitates the anonymous leaking of secret information through its website. The group reportedly once operated from there.

But Kristin Arnadottir, Iceland's ambassador to China, said that according to Icelandic law, a person can only submit an application for asylum once he or she is in Iceland.

'An enormous service'

But freedom of information advocates take a different view.

"I think he's done an enormous service," said Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers -- documents showing the government had lied about the progress of the Vietnam War.

"It gives us a chance, I think, from drawing back from the total surveillance state that we could say we're in the process of becoming, I'm afraid we have become," Ellsberg said on CNN Newsroom on Sunday.

In Snowden's case, The Guardian on Wednesday published a top secret court order demanding that Verizon Business Network Services turn over details of phone calls published from April 25 to July 19. Intelligence officials later confirmed the program, which analysts say likely covers all U.S. carriers.

On Thursday, The Guardian and The Washington Post disclosed the existence of PRISM, a program they said allows NSA analysts to extract the details of people's online activities -- including "audio and video chats, photographs, e-mails, documents" and other materials -- from computers at Microsoft, Google, Apple and other Internet firms.

Intelligence officials similarly confirmed that program's existence, but said it only targets overseas residents who are not U.S. citizens.

How does U.S. data collection affect me?

Snowden said the NSA's reach poses "an existential threat to democracy." He said he had hoped the Obama administration would end the programs once it took office in 2009, but instead, he said, President Obama "advanced the very policies that I thought would be reined in."

"I don't see myself as a hero, because what I'm doing is self-interested," he said. "I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy, and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."

On Friday, Obama said he entered office skeptical of such programs, but decided to reauthorize them after a thorough vetting and the addition of unspecified additional safeguards. He called them only "modest encroachments on privacy" that help thwart terror attacks.

Defending the program

James Clapper, director of the Office of National Intelligence, had no direct comment on Snowden's admission, but noted, "Any person who has a security clearance knows that he or she has an obligation to protect classified information and abide by the law."

The Justice Department declined to comment, citing an ongoing investigation into the leak.

Leaders of the intelligence committees in Congress defended the program Sunday.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, the chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said it helped lead to convictions in two cases:

-- Najibullah Zazi, an Afghan-born Colorado man who pleaded guilty to conspiring to bomb targets in New York.

-- David Headley, who pleaded guilty to conducting advance surveillance for the Pakistani jihadists who attacked hotels and other targets in Mumbai, India, in 2008, killing 164 people.

rearnakedchoke
06-10-2013, 03:56 PM
"These programs are within the law," Feinstein, D-California, told ABC's "This Week." And Rep. Mike Rogers, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, told ABC, "The inflammatory nature of the comments does not fit with what Dianne and I know this program really does."

"The instances where this has produced good -- has disrupted plots, prevented terrorist attacks -- is all classified," said Rogers, R-Michigan. "That's what's so hard about this."

Clapper: Programs authorized

Clapper's office declassified some details of the programs, which it said were "conducted under authorities widely known and discussed, and fully debated and authorized by Congress."

It said PRISM was created in 2008, targets "foreign targets located outside the United States" and gets reviewed by the administration, Congress and judges. And Rogers told reporters Sunday that "there is not a target on Americans."

Surveillance concerns 'fanciful,' Britain says

But Greenwald, the lead author of the Guardian pieces, told ABC's "This Week" that Americans need an "open, honest debate about whether that's the kind of country that we want to live in."

"These are things that the American people have a right to know," said Greenwald, a lawyer and civil liberties advocate. "The only thing being damaged is the credibility of political officials and the way they exercise power in the dark."

Sen. Mark Udall, D-Colorado, who has long called for greater transparency in how the government collects data on Americans, said the legal authority should be reopened for debate after last week's disclosures.

"Maybe Americans think this is OK, but I think the line has been drawn too far toward 'we're going to invade your privacy,' versus 'we're going to respect your privacy,'" Udall told CNN's "State of the Union."

The Obama administration is already under fire following revelations the Justice Department seized two months of phone records from Associated Press reporters and editors as part of an investigation into leaks of classified information.

'I do not expect to see home again'

The Guardian reported that Snowden grew up in North Carolina and Maryland. He joined the Army in 2003 but was discharged after breaking both his legs in a training accident. He never completed a high-school diploma but learned computer skills at a community college in Maryland.

He started his career as a security guard for an NSA facility at the University of Maryland, then went to work for the CIA in Internet security. In 2009, he got the first of several jobs with private contractors that worked with the NSA.

In a statement issued Sunday afternoon, Booz Allen said Snowden had worked for the company for less than three months. The news that he had leaked American secrets was "shocking" and if true, "represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm," the company said.

Snowden told the Guardian that he left for Hong Kong on May 20 without telling his family or his girlfriend what he planned.

"I do not expect to see home again," he told the paper, acknowledging the risk of imprisonment over his actions.

"You can't come up against the world's most powerful intelligence agencies and not accept the risk," he said. "If they want to get you, over time they will."

Bonnie
06-10-2013, 05:34 PM
I think Americans needed to find out what our government is doing data mining, collecting all this information on millions of it's citizens. I think we should all be alarmed by the things that are coming out about this and what the IRS has been doing, as well as Eric Holder and the DOJ going after journalists/press, and all the cover-ups with absolutely no accountability for any of it.

I'm not sure about this guy Snowden especially since he fled to Hong Kong, it doesn't make him look good. If they can prove he's leaked classified information to China that's a whole other matter and he should be treated as a traitor.

It's okay if President Obama and his gang of lawless peeps leak classified information to make him look good, but when others blow the whistle informing Americans about all the underhanded stuff going on under the umbrella of Obama's administration, it's a different story. Obama said his would be the most transparent administration, as we see it's been anything but!

Bonnie
06-10-2013, 05:39 PM
They were just showing on FOX, "New Concerns about Ties between Google Chair and the White House".

County Mike
06-10-2013, 05:51 PM
Our government needs a complete overhaul.

Bonnie
06-10-2013, 08:33 PM
What we need is a President who actually believes in upholding our Constitution and the rule of law; a President who believes in the separate but equal branches of government that provide checks and balances, and a President who accepts accountability and responsibility for what is going on during his watch! We need an Attorney General/DOJ that actually enforces the law instead of abusing the power of his office to favor or target certain Americans and then break and thwart the law in order to cover it all up.

NateR
06-11-2013, 04:29 AM
Since the government was acting outside of the US Constitution by collecting data on American citizens who have not been accused of a crime, then he is more of a whistleblower, not a traitor.

It's the Obama Administration that is betraying the American people here, not Edward Snowden.

Bonnie
06-11-2013, 05:38 AM
Since the government was acting outside of the US Constitution by collecting data on American citizens who have not been accused of a crime, then he is more of a whistleblower, not a traitor.

It's the Obama Administration that is betraying the American people here, not Edward Snowden.

I'm kind of shocked that so many are okay with this program...people like Charles Krauthammer and Karl Rove. Karl Rove was explaining the program on O'Reilly and he says, like the President has, that they aren't collecting information on "Americans", but I just don't believe it. Have you seen that huge complex they are building in Utah just for this purpose, to collect and store all this information? Between Benghazi, the IRS targeting religious and political conservative groups, the DOJ getting warrants targeting the AP and James Rosen of FOX News, we're supposed to TRUST their word that there are all these "safeguards" in place to protect us from abuse with this program...I don't think so!

The thing that makes me uneasy about Edward Snowden is that he fled to Hong Kong/China. He's telling the world all this information he was privy to which could make a lot of unsavory people/countries want to get ahold of him to find out exactly what secrets he knows that they could use against us. I'm glad we know about this program now, but I wish Snowden had stayed here to do it. He's in a lot of trouble. If he doesn't end up dead, I have no doubt the U.S. government will do everything in its power to get him back here and prosecute him. I'm sure they will want to make an example of him to discourage anyone else who might be thinking of exposing secrets to the public or our enemies.

rearnakedchoke
06-11-2013, 12:36 PM
I'm kind of shocked that so many are okay with this program...people like Charles Krauthammer and Karl Rove. Karl Rove was explaining the program on O'Reilly and he says, like the President has, that they aren't collecting information on "Americans", but I just don't believe it. Have you seen that huge complex they are building in Utah just for this purpose, to collect and store all this information? Between Benghazi, the IRS targeting religious and political conservative groups, the DOJ getting warrants targeting the AP and James Rosen of FOX News, we're supposed to TRUST their word that there are all these "safeguards" in place to protect us from abuse with this program...I don't think so!

The thing that makes me uneasy about Edward Snowden is that he fled to Hong Kong/China. He's telling the world all this information he was privy to which could make a lot of unsavory people/countries want to get ahold of him to find out exactly what secrets he knows that they could use against us. I'm glad we know about this program now, but I wish Snowden had stayed here to do it. He's in a lot of trouble. If he doesn't end up dead, I have no doubt the U.S. government will do everything in its power to get him back here and prosecute him. I'm sure they will want to make an example of him to discourage anyone else who might be thinking of exposing secrets to the public or our enemies.

i don't think there will be a lot of backlash from the other side as (and i am just guessing) there has probably been programs like this, or similar to this in past administrations ... its just the obama admin that couldn't keep the wraps on it .. they just mentioned up here in Canada that the gov't has been montoriing calls (something like monitoring outgoing calls to certain numbers to detect patterns) ... i am not saying its right, i just think there are so many things gov'ts around the world do that their citizens don't have a clue about ..

but, i think if this guy had security clearances for this and exposed it, he should be brought to justice on it ..

Bonnie
06-11-2013, 01:48 PM
i don't think there will be a lot of backlash from the other side as (and i am just guessing) there has probably been programs like this, or similar to this in past administrations ... its just the obama admin that couldn't keep the wraps on it .. they just mentioned up here in Canada that the gov't has been montoriing calls (something like monitoring outgoing calls to certain numbers to detect patterns) ... i am not saying its right, i just think there are so many things gov'ts around the world do that their citizens don't have a clue about ..

but, i think if this guy had security clearances for this and exposed it, he should be brought to justice on it ..

I understand the world is a different place and we have to be able to have the ability to track terrorists, it's the unknown human factor that makes a program like PRISM so scary. Look how the IRS is being used against political opponents, look at what our AG has done in the James Rosen case. I have little faith in these so-called safeguards they say are in place to guard against abuse of this program when we see just how easy it is for people in positions of power to abuse that power and use it against their own citizens.

I want us to be safe from terrorists, I just hate that we have to wonder now if we're safe from our own government.

NateR
06-11-2013, 05:55 PM
I understand the world is a different place and we have to be able to have the ability to track terrorists, it's the unknown human factor that makes a program like PRISM so scary. Look how the IRS is being used against political opponents, look at what our AG has done in the James Rosen case. I have little faith in these so-called safeguards they say are in place to guard against abuse of this program when we see just how easy it is for people in positions of power to abuse that power and use it against their own citizens.

I want us to be safe from terrorists, I just hate that we have to wonder now if we're safe from our own government.

I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.

Bonnie
06-11-2013, 11:29 PM
I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.

Barack Obama had a lot to say about George Bush's NSA program before he became President which is ironic now since he's expanded it even more than what Bush was doing. Back then, Dems were against Bush's program, now that B.O. is doing it, they're just fine with it. :rolleyes:

Right now, most people are saying security is more important to them than their privacy. I wonder what Ben Franklin would say today given the times. Back in his day he said this:

Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither ~ Benjamin Franklin

rearnakedchoke
06-12-2013, 05:07 PM
I agree. The problem is that our government is run by people and people WILL abuse power if you hand them that power without accountability. It's our nature, since human beings are inherently evil. So, it's best not to give the government that power in the first place.

Could you imagine how different the media reaction to this would be if George W. Bush was still President? Right now the Left is trying their best to vilify this Snowden guy, but they would be heralding him as a hero and a true patriot if Bush was still in office.

I'm starting to think that maybe protecting the American people from terrorism should not be 100% the government's responsibility. No one should be relying on any government body for their own personal protection. We need to get back to a frame of mind where every individual American is responsible for their own safety and the safety of their family.

sure .. people are going to side with the political group they identify themselves with most of the time ... i am sure most people on here would have no problem with this if it were the bush admin doing it, just like they had no issue with the patriot act ... but john mccain has stated his support for this program (i know he ran in 2008, not 2012), so this program would have probably been in effect with the GOP in charge too ...

VCURamFan
06-12-2013, 08:48 PM
sure .. people are going to side with the political group they identify themselves with most of the time ... i am sure most people on here would have no problem with this if it were the bush admin doing it, just like they had no issue with the patriot act ... but john mccain has stated his support for this program (i know he ran in 2008, not 2012), so this program would have probably been in effect with the GOP in charge too ...
I agree. This is not a "Democrats in power" thing, this is a "sinful human beings in power" thing. To assume that this would be different because the President had a little "R" next to his name as opposed to a little "D" is foolish.

Tyburn
06-13-2013, 06:34 PM
Since the government was acting outside of the US Constitution by collecting data on American citizens who have not been accused of a crime, then he is more of a whistleblower, not a traitor.

It's the Obama Administration that is betraying the American people here, not Edward Snowden.

Erm...not JUST American citizens....

:ninja:

What IS embarissing is...that the American Union (and I make that as a distinguishment from America as in people) is so good at spying, when the British Secret Service want to know what British Citizens are doing....they ask the Americans :laugh::laugh:

Its funny how in England there hasnt been a word about the ethics of the US looking at Citizens outside of its soverignty...but the British Government HAS tried to deny that the British Secret Service being barred from doing what the American Union has done to its Citizens...used the Americans to do their work for them and then fax them a copy :laugh::laugh:

Lets be honnest...The "Union" isnt just representatives of State Governments, and thats the problem with it...once its beyond its design brief, it can make it up as it goes along.

As for the actual guy...well technically speaking, if he signed the American version of the British "Official Secrets Act" then, technically speaking, yes he IS a Traitor to the Union. But being a Traitor to the Constitution depends on whether the Union has broken it or not. It has. Therefore if one considers the Union Treacherous...well...its morally correct to unveil it for what it is.

The real problem is that as I see it, Americans seem to think that the constituion, and the Federal Union are one and the same...But its Constituion First, Union Second...The Constituion guides the Union, NOT the other way round....except...as we can see...actually The Union pays no attention to the Constituion at all...and those Checks and Ballences, they are now part of the problem because they are reliant on the Federal System...therefore, if the Union asks for someone unconstituional...say...a health reform...the Supreme Court will turn a blind eye, because it brings the federal system more money....and therefore, they are better off.

The First Step of recovery would be to crush the Bi-Partisanship of Congress. Remove large scale political parties all together, because they shouldnt exist, they are a product of Big Government.

The Second Step would be to return power to the State Governments where a host of political groups fighting for local issues should be encouraged

The Third Step would then be too largely collapse all the over-inflated departments, commission, and things that are part of an illicit Federal Union This would include passing back the law making to the State Governments

The Fourth Step would be to make the Branches, the Union itself, rather then a force of people controlled by Washington Federal Triangle

The fifth step would be to expect the State Governments to start to be self sufficient. They are independant Soverignties, and where they are not self sufficient, they should be fighting in congress for the trade to satisfy them. Congress should be a veichal for the independant States to get what they need from the rest of the world, that is all.

The final step, would then be to cease a 24/7 Federal Government in the way you have it today. The Secret Service should only be to look at foreign threats...local threats are for State Governments to deal with. Big Government looks for the need to conduct war and peace....not to spy on its own populas...the only spying that would ever need to be done, would be State Governments, Spying within their own boarders

Face it...you will NEVER go back to that. That, which is outlined above, is pretty much what England would consider Provincial Rule...its what George Washington would have known, where each state ran itself, and then all States sent representatives, once every so often for joint ventures.

Personally, I blame Abraham Lincoln, but thats just me :ashamed:

Tyburn
06-13-2013, 06:52 PM
Right now, most people are saying security is more important to them than their privacy. I wonder what Ben Franklin would say today given the times. Back in his day he said this:

I believe that He and George Washington, would believe that the Federal Union as it now stands, is a non-democratic, dictatorial regieme. I reckon they would consider it closer to what England was when they Founded it, rather then closer to what it was when they founded it.

He recongised the Union as Conventions. Singular meetings of Continental Congress (as opposed to Congress, which existed, obviously, as part of every State Government) for joint issues of independant States concerning the outside world. A 24/7 sitting Government, would probably remind him of Westminsters Parliament...the which he considered Undemocratic, and under the authority of a Tyrant.

I think its a good job he died in a time, where the leaders of State Governments were also known as "Presidents" (He was President of The Supreme Executive Council of The CommonWealth of Pensylvania) Not...Guv'ner :laugh:

Still...having said all of that...your country is still a shining example compared to the rest of the nations on the planet. Yes, you have faults...but not as many, and not as ingrained, though I am glad to see that any slide causes you all distress...for that shows you still care, and you care because your hope (unlike ours) has yet to be extinguished.

Bonnie
06-13-2013, 11:04 PM
Erm...not JUST American citizens....

:ninja:

What IS embarissing is...that the American Union (and I make that as a distinguishment from America as in people) is so good at spying, when the British Secret Service want to know what British Citizens are doing....they ask the Americans :laugh::laugh:

Its funny how in England there hasnt been a word about the ethics of the US looking at Citizens outside of its soverignty...but the British Government HAS tried to deny that the British Secret Service being barred from doing what the American Union has done to its Citizens...used the Americans to do their work for them and then fax them a copy :laugh::laugh:

Personally, I blame Abraham Lincoln, but thats just me :ashamed:

:laugh:

Why blame Abraham Lincoln...because he believed that no state(s) should be allowed to separate itself from the Union? :unsure-1:

I believe that He and George Washington, would believe that the Federal Union as it now stands, is a non-democratic, dictatorial regieme. I reckon they would consider it closer to what England was when they Founded it, rather then closer to what it was when they founded it.

He recongised the Union as Conventions. Singular meetings of Continental Congress (as opposed to Congress, which existed, obviously, as part of every State Government) for joint issues of independant States concerning the outside world. A 24/7 sitting Government, would probably remind him of Westminsters Parliament...the which he considered Undemocratic, and under the authority of a Tyrant.

I think its a good job he died in a time, where the leaders of State Governments were also known as "Presidents" (He was President of The Supreme Executive Council of The CommonWealth of Pensylvania) Not...Guv'ner :laugh:

Still...having said all of that...your country is still a shining example compared to the rest of the nations on the planet. Yes, you have faults...but not as many, and not as ingrained, though I am glad to see that any slide causes you all distress...for that shows you still care, and you care because your hope (unlike ours) has yet to be extinguished.

If our founding fathers could see how big we've allowed government to get, and how it's expanding and intruding into our lives, and how it's abusing it's powers to use against it's citizens, they'd probably say, :sign0094:!

Or words to that effect. :laugh:

Bonnie
06-25-2013, 01:06 AM
Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.

rearnakedchoke
06-25-2013, 04:02 PM
Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.

yes, china dropped the ball on this one and the US are making it known that they did ... Russia seems to not want to say they know or don't know where he is .. and Ecuador or Cuba will no doubt not give up Snowden ... Ecuador is already holding Assange i believe, and i read they sent a plane to get him from russia, but that came back empty.

NateR
06-25-2013, 05:54 PM
I think China and Russia are thumbing their noses in the US' face and making our government look like fools. This just shows how little respect for the Obama Administration the world really has.

Tyburn
06-25-2013, 06:01 PM
Well if we needed proof of what we already suspected, that we are no longer viewed by other countries as a power to be feared and respected, we have it now. Hong Kong let Snowden go as we were in communications with them to hand him over, and if he lands in Russia, I doubt Putin would do us any favors, and now Ecuador is considering giving asylum to Snowden.

President Obama's chickens are finally coming home to roost.

For some reason, the flight to latin america/meso America left without Snowden on board, and Vladimir has made it quite clear that he is under no obligation to help the United States....he is pissed off because Barack Obama forced him to sign up to an agreement to say that President Assad of Assyria, one of Vlads best friends, had to step down for the Rebels to take power and end the civil war.

China has no particular want to be involved in American internal affaires...because thats essentially what this is...you have to understand two things. First ONLY the Federal Government considers him a Criminal...and secondly, whilst he might have told the Americans something they didnt know...he didnt say much that suprise any other Super Power (either now or previous) We know very well that the United States Government will spy on everyone as much as the possibly can...after all, we are probably doing the same thing. Its expected...and so for the Russians and the Chinese....I'm afraid its probably "Big Wow" when it comes to the revelation the Federal Government is looking into everyones personal lives :laugh: The Chinese and Russians would go as far as to say that is what Governments SHOULD be doing anyway :ninja:

Tyburn
06-25-2013, 06:16 PM
:laugh:

1) Why blame Abraham Lincoln...because he believed that no state(s) should be allowed to separate itself from the Union? :unsure-1:



2) If our founding fathers could see how big we've allowed government to get, and how it's expanding and intruding into our lives, and how it's abusing it's powers to use against it's citizens, they'd probably say, :sign0094:!

Or words to that effect. :laugh:

1) No...because he said that No Individual State had any Legal Status of its own. That is WHY he said they could not separate from the Union...without The BIG Federal Government, there was no Legitamacy in Law.

By doing that, he banished the Soveringties of FIFTY soverign States, with all the Freedoms listed in the Dec of Independance. When he won the Civil War the Union reigned Surpreme...and it has done eversince, moving further and further away from the design brief...because integral to the Consitution is the fact that the Federal Republic is "United States"...NOT "A United State" do you spot the difference.

Trust me...George Washington knew what a Single, BIG Government could do. Thats why Congress wasnt permanent, Why each of the Soverignties had their own "Presidents" why the Soverignties set the rules. The "Representatives" were not politicians...they were litterally, Representatives of the different States...when they convened a convention, The Union appeared out of their collective wranglings over political matters...and then, once the Congress had completed...each State then had to Ratify that within its own way of being. If you remove that process, which you MUST if you say that States have no individual legal power, they can not ratify anything....you've distroyed the fundemental emphasis of the mode of Government...set up a permanent Government...and it would inevitably ring bells of Westminister! The form of Governance that caused the War of Independance

Washington Believed the Former
Lincoln Believed the Latter.

2) I think Washington would be very distressed if he saw todays Union. He would recognise the European Union as being closer to his ideal...for each State in the European Union is Soverign...Though that is rapidly changing also.

Nathan is right, it doesnt matter the starting place...all Governments once they go, inevitably, begin to corrupt themselves in a manner ill befitting :laugh:

Tyburn
06-25-2013, 06:25 PM
our government .

:unsure-1: Forgive me...but China and Russia do not realize your Government Exists. All they see is The Federal "Government" Union. A vast swaith of the Western World has never even heard of Illinois...before I came to this Forum...I was one of them :ashamed: there are doubtless many States I have never heard of, and wouldnt know without looking at a map :ashamed:

But in terms of the Federal Union....China probably simply doesnt care about this issue...and Russia is enjoying the opportunity to stick its fingers up, coz she is a point scorer...and she felt that the last battle was won by the US in regards to the G8 Summit and Assyria :rolleyes: oh its petty. :laugh:

rearnakedchoke
06-25-2013, 06:34 PM
I think China and Russia are thumbing their noses in the US' face and making our government look like fools. This just shows how little respect for the Obama Administration the world really has.

they are probably also thinking that hey, if they are spying on their own people, what intelligence must they have on us! ... there is an article out there saying putin has said he knows that snowden is in the airport and that he is a free man .... he won't extradite him ... pretty crazy ....

Tyburn
06-25-2013, 06:35 PM
Meanwhile...look what this "prism" shyte has stired up in England :rolleyes:

Human rights group Liberty is taking legal action against the British security services amid fears its communications were hacked.

Liberty has issued a claim against the intelligence services over their suspected involvement in the Prism and Project Tempora privacy scandal.

A spokesman for the group said it was believed their electronic communications may have been unlawfully accessed by the security services and staff at the communications centre GCHQ.

It has issued a claim to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal (IPT), suggesting the human right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence could have been breached.

Liberty wants the IPT to establish whether British authorities used Prism or Tempora to bypass the rules governing access to personal material.

James Welsh, its legal director, said: "Those demanding the Snoopers' Charter seem to have been indulging in out-of-control snooping even without it - exploiting legal loopholes and help from Uncle Sam.

"No-one suggests a completely unpoliced internet but those in power cannot swap targeted investigations for endless monitoring of the entire globe."

Documents disclosed by US whistleblower Edward Snowden suggest GCHQ secretly accessed fibre-optic cables carrying huge amounts of internet and communications data.

The agency is said to be able to tap into and store data from the cables for up to 30 days for analysis under an operation codenamed Tempora.

GCHQ is also said to have accessed information about UK citizens via the US National Security Agency's secret Prism monitoring programme.

The Cheltenham-based agency insists it is "scrupulous" in complying with the law and Foreign Secretary William Hague has dismissed claims that it used Prism to circumvent the law as "baseless".

NateR
06-25-2013, 06:49 PM
:unsure-1: Forgive me...but China and Russia do not realize your Government Exists. All they see is The Federal "Government" Union.


That's what I'm talking about when I refer to "our government." For better or worse, the Confederacy has been dead for 150 years now. The US Federal Government is our government.

NateR
06-25-2013, 06:50 PM
they are probably also thinking that hey, if they are spying on their own people, what intelligence must they have on us! ... there is an article out there saying putin has said he knows that snowden is in the airport and that he is a free man .... he won't extradite him ... pretty crazy ....

That could be part of it, but I think making Obama look like a fool is just bonus points.

rearnakedchoke
06-25-2013, 07:10 PM
That could be part of it, but I think making Obama look like a fool is just bonus points.

you could be right .. but i remember both of these guys doing the same to Bush ... Russia with the Georgia conflict and something about when Bush went to the Beijing Olympics, spoke about China's track record with human rights and got told to keep quiet ... so sure, it may be Obama, but these two countries have always liked to get one over on the US ...

Bonnie
06-25-2013, 07:56 PM
yes, china dropped the ball on this one and the US are making it known that they did ... Russia seems to not want to say they know or don't know where he is .. and Ecuador or Cuba will no doubt not give up Snowden ... Ecuador is already holding Assange i believe, and i read they sent a plane to get him from russia, but that came back empty.

"Dropping the ball" suggests an unintended screw-up, I don't think that was the case. I heard China was behind Hong Kong letting him go. Snowden told China the U.S. was hacking them, could have been pay back. Now Putin has said Snowden is in Russia and that he has committed no crimes in Russia so he will not be arrested or extradited. It's obvious these countries fear no retaliation or consequences from us, and why should they when they have seen repeatedly that Obama is an all talk-no action President.

They've seen him willing to let Americans die in Benghazi with no consequences for those who killed them; they've seen our embassies overrun and burned all across the Middle East and Asia with no consequences; they see his weak foreign policies and retreat from the world stage; they see him constantly apologizing for America, and on and on....

You can't lead from behind or on the sidelines and expect to be respected as an effective Commander in Chief and world leader. It's na´ve thinking and puts us in a dangerous position.

Bonnie
06-25-2013, 08:44 PM
you could be right .. but i remember both of these guys doing the same to Bush ... Russia with the Georgia conflict and something about when Bush went to the Beijing Olympics, spoke about China's track record with human rights and got told to keep quiet ... so sure, it may be Obama, but these two countries have always liked to get one over on the US ...

I think this is different. Even if they didn't like us, I think there was respect and fear for what we could or would do. The lack of respect and fear being shown now is directly related to Obama, due to his foreign policies and lack of leadership in my opinion. They view him as being weak.

rearnakedchoke
06-26-2013, 01:02 PM
I think this is different. Even if they didn't like us, I think there was respect and fear for what we could or would do. The lack of respect and fear being shown now is directly related to Obama, due to his foreign policies and lack of leadership in my opinion. They view him as being weak.

like i said, you may be right .. but i think almost every president since reagan has had to deal with some other leader in the world doing that they can to stick it to the most powerful man in the world .. that's just my opinion ... i think putin's response is weak saying that snowden hasn't comitted a crime, so i can't send him back ... he has no valid passport and probably doesn't have a visa to be in russia, i don't know if him being in the transit area of the airport makes it so that he doesn't need one ...