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Vizion
06-04-2013, 05:16 AM
You don't normally think of traditional values coming out of France, but this would be a great model for the rest of the WORLD to take up. Time to take a stand against this abomination!

http://news.yahoo.com/protest-paris-against-frances-gay-marriage-law-164249491.html

NateR
06-04-2013, 06:00 AM
That's awesome! :cool: Whoever thought it would be France who led the return to common sense?

flo
06-04-2013, 08:36 AM
You don't normally think of traditional values coming out of France, but this would be a great model for the rest of the WORLD to take up. Time to take a stand against this abomination!

http://news.yahoo.com/protest-paris-against-frances-gay-marriage-law-164249491.html

That's awesome! :cool: Whoever thought it would be France who led the return to common sense?

Word and word.

rearnakedchoke
06-04-2013, 01:08 PM
well, if they can do it peacefully, good for them .. but I hear there has been some violence already .... don't think they'll get anywhere, seeing as they are probably in the minority ... the prez said they were going to legalize it if they won the election, and they won .. the people have spoken

rearnakedchoke
06-04-2013, 03:55 PM
You don't normally think of traditional values coming out of France, but this would be a great model for the rest of the WORLD to take up. Time to take a stand against this abomination!

http://news.yahoo.com/protest-paris-against-frances-gay-marriage-law-164249491.html

yes, because allowing same sex couples to take part in an institution that ends in divorce nearly 50% of the time is clearly an abomination ...

NateR
06-04-2013, 07:18 PM
.. but I hear there has been some violence already ....

It's funny how liberals always try to associate conservative groups with violence, even when there is no evidence of violence.

Even if there was, then those are just the actions of individuals. Similar to the violence committed by Gay Rights groups. Nobody is claiming that all gays are violent, just a militant few.

However, anytime a conservative decides to publicly take a stand on something, that person gets associated with violent behavior or hate, because liberals can't stand the idea that reasonable, intelligent people disagree with them on something.

Trying to associate a demonstration like this one in France with violent behavior just shows how ignorant and closed-minded liberals really are.

rearnakedchoke
06-04-2013, 08:34 PM
It's funny how liberals always try to associate conservative groups with violence, even when there is no evidence of violence.

Even if there was, then those are just the actions of individuals. Similar to the violence committed by Gay Rights groups. Nobody is claiming that all gays are violent, just a militant few.

However, anytime a conservative decides to publicly take a stand on something, that person gets associated with violent behavior or hate, because liberals can't stand the idea that reasonable, intelligent people disagree with them on something.

Trying to associate a demonstration like this one in France with violent behavior just shows how ignorant and closed-minded liberals really are.

i have always had the stance that people should be able to protest as long as they keep it peaceful ... whether its protesting gay marriage, women's pro-choice (or pro life), when we had the nut jobs protesting the G20 summit etc ..

NateR
06-04-2013, 08:58 PM
when we had the nut jobs protesting the G20 summit etc ..

And there is usually plenty of violence surrounding those events, but it doesn't get mentioned in the mainstream media because it's usually understood to be the acts of individuals. It's the same with the violence that union groups are responsible for.

However, whenever a conservative group publicly speaks out, they always get linked with violence. It's almost a given. Just look at the crazy accusations that get leveled against the Tea Party.

rearnakedchoke
06-04-2013, 09:03 PM
And there is usually plenty of violence surrounding those events, but it doesn't get mentioned in the mainstream media because it's usually understood to be the acts of individuals. It's the same with the violence that union groups are responsible for.

However, whenever a conservative group publicly speaks out, they always get linked with violence. It's almost a given. Just look at the crazy accusations that get leveled against the Tea Party.

well, i guess it has to do with where it is being held ... i haven't read of violent tea party demonstrations, as it doesn't make the news up here, but the g20 in toronto was all the news up here because it was local ... and all who got arrested, detained had it coming to them

Vizion
06-06-2013, 01:37 PM
yes, because allowing same sex couples to take part in an institution that ends in divorce nearly 50% of the time is clearly an abomination ...

First off, the "50%" is not an accurate statistic. It includes 2nd, 3rd marriages from individuals, so in that it throws the numbers off. Some say the actual numbers are 25-30%.

Secondly, your argument is illogical. One thing has NOTHING to do with the other. Gay marriage is not marriage at all and therefore calling it such, and legalizing it and forcing it through is threatening.

Read your Bible man. You need to have ears to hear. The world is nuts, and heading straight to hell and these kinds of abomonations are nothing but indications of that.

rearnakedchoke
06-10-2013, 07:43 PM
First off, the "50%" is not an accurate statistic. It includes 2nd, 3rd marriages from individuals, so in that it throws the numbers off. Some say the actual numbers are 25-30%.

Secondly, your argument is illogical. One thing has NOTHING to do with the other. Gay marriage is not marriage at all and therefore calling it such, and legalizing it and forcing it through is threatening.

Read your Bible man. You need to have ears to hear. The world is nuts, and heading straight to hell and these kinds of abomonations are nothing but indications of that.

well, you may be right ... i don't know what the real rate of divorce is, 50% is the number that is thrown around .. who knows if you can even find real stats on this ... listen, when you can go to vegas and get married by a guy dressed as elvis, or have a drive thru wedding, how can people say that two guys or two girls marrying each other goes against the values of marriage ... or also the fact that heterosexuals are getting around the system for tax reasons and getting married to save some dough .. i am not saying that two wrongs make a right, but i think allowing gay marriage isn't going to tarnish the institution for those religious people who have been married for years ..

Vizion
06-13-2013, 08:33 AM
well, you may be right ... i don't know what the real rate of divorce is, 50% is the number that is thrown around .. who knows if you can even find real stats on this ... listen, when you can go to vegas and get married by a guy dressed as elvis, or have a drive thru wedding, how can people say that two guys or two girls marrying each other goes against the values of marriage ... or also the fact that heterosexuals are getting around the system for tax reasons and getting married to save some dough .. i am not saying that two wrongs make a right, but i think allowing gay marriage isn't going to tarnish the institution for those religious people who have been married for years .. Divorce tarnishes marriage too. True.

This is why brother you need to have Ears to Hear. It doesn't matter what man's law makes "right". It ONLY matters that God's Law IS right. If you keep judging all of this through a humanistic, excuse-laden lens you will always excuse everything. There ARE absolutes. God's ways are always absolute.

rearnakedchoke
06-13-2013, 02:34 PM
Divorce tarnishes marriage too. True.

This is why brother you need to have Ears to Hear. It doesn't matter what man's law makes "right". It ONLY matters that God's Law IS right. If you keep judging all of this through a humanistic, excuse-laden lens you will always excuse everything. There ARE absolutes. God's ways are always absolute.

Viz, i like you man .... you definitely have a way of wording things ... great post ... but man, not everyone believes in the bible ... not everyone believes in God or religion .. how can you base the laws of a land with such a wide variety of belief systems on one Holy Book? how can you say gay marriages aren't allowed because God didn't intend for it without alienating a bunch of people .. i know God isn't worried about alienating non-believers .. but still ..

Vizion
06-13-2013, 03:54 PM
Viz, i like you man .... you definitely have a way of wording things ... great post ... but man, not everyone believes in the bible ... not everyone believes in God or religion .. how can you base the laws of a land with such a wide variety of belief systems on one Holy Book? You may not able to, but what society cannot or WILL not do is irrelevant. God doesn't judge YOU by what society says, He judges you by your heart. And if you are not living your life according to His Law then you are subject to His penalty.

how can you say gay marriages aren't allowed because God didn't intend for it without alienating a bunch of people .. i know God isn't worried about alienating non-believers .. but still .. Everyone is given the choice TO believe. Working backwards from that fact we know that no one is or was initially alienated by God. They took that walk away. They were not pushed away. The Bible should be your source book for the answers. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality in general revealed to be anything less than a pure sin.

rearnakedchoke
06-13-2013, 04:58 PM
You may not able to, but what society cannot or WILL not do is irrelevant. God doesn't judge YOU by what society says, He judges you by your heart. And if you are not living your life according to His Law then you are subject to His penalty.

Everyone is given the choice TO believe. Working backwards from that fact we know that no one is or was initially alienated by God. They took that walk away. They were not pushed away. The Bible should be your source book for the answers. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality in general revealed to be anything less than a pure sin.

again, another brilliant post man .. thanks for the insight!

Tyburn
06-13-2013, 07:56 PM
That's awesome! :cool: Whoever thought it would be France who led the return to common sense?

Everything else that they have led, has been doomed :unsure: doesnt bode well :laugh:

Tyburn
06-13-2013, 08:04 PM
You may not able to, but what society cannot or WILL not do is irrelevant. God doesn't judge YOU by what society says, He judges you by your heart. And if you are not living your life according to His Law then you are subject to His penalty.

Everyone is given the choice TO believe. Working backwards from that fact we know that no one is or was initially alienated by God. They took that walk away. They were not pushed away. The Bible should be your source book for the answers. Nowhere in the Bible is homosexuality in general revealed to be anything less than a pure sin.

So is telling lies...so perhaps you should organise a "no telling lies" protest. :laugh:

There is one little factoid you forgot to mention. In the Bible it makes very clear that sin is not weighted. No sin is greater then any other in the eyes of GOD (apart from the unforgiveable sin)

For GOD you are either perfect, or you are not. As we are not, we need Christ to save us. You talk about not using societal values to judge...well be careful...because I see this topic come up time and time and time again, with all the Christians duly spouting their criticisms and rebukes...

..But according to GOD, a lifestyle full of lies...which YOU and ANYONE READING THIS, has chosen, is just as condemned, and just as bad...yet...I dont see a lot of threads about that.

Its easy to attack a minority sin that you may never indulge in....but try to level the barrel at other, more widespread sins, particularly those which are the thorne in your own side...because never are people made to feel so bad about themselves for lies, or theaft, or adultory...as they are for homosexuality.

You remember that :)

Vizion
06-13-2013, 08:52 PM
So is telling lies...so perhaps you should organise a "no telling lies" protest. :laugh:

There is one little factoid you forgot to mention. In the Bible it makes very clear that sin is not weighted. No sin is greater then any other in the eyes of GOD (apart from the unforgiveable sin)

For GOD you are either perfect, or you are not. As we are not, we need Christ to save us. You talk about not using societal values to judge...well be careful...because I see this topic come up time and time and time again, with all the Christians duly spouting their criticisms and rebukes...

..But according to GOD, a lifestyle full of lies...which YOU and ANYONE READING THIS, has chosen, is just as condemned, and just as bad...yet...I dont see a lot of threads about that.

Its easy to attack a minority sin that you may never indulge in....but try to level the barrel at other, more widespread sins, particularly those which are the thorne in your own side...because never are people made to feel so bad about themselves for lies, or theaft, or adultory...as they are for homosexuality.

You remember that :) I agree with that. No sin is necessarily more grievous than another, but some sins drive movements that spread that sin and normalize that sin and call the evil of that sin good. Some sins just plain threaten society as a whole.

Tyburn
06-14-2013, 08:22 PM
I agree with that. No sin is necessarily more grievous than another, but some sins drive movements that spread that sin and normalize that sin and call the evil of that sin good. Some sins just plain threaten society as a whole.

No Christian Homosexuals I know, and trust me, I know some, even the ones that are practising, wouldnt say its "Good" They might say its required to gain the same legal rights, they might say that its good as a confession of love and intent to have a long term relationship, they may even feel that they are entitled to something if they feel that they have no chance of ever getting heterosexual....that it may not be perfect...but it is the best that they can hope for. They might also say its a good way for society to hold them accountable for life long promises to each other.

I have heard some say that its only fair...personally, I think that is because they are sad that they can never have a "big day" like all the hetrosexuals can, and that psychologically, a civil partnership makes them feel inferior.

But then I have never really been involved in millitancy...some homosexuals dont want to get married...they just want to make the Churches embarrised by getting the Government to force them to do things they wouldnt want to...and a lot of that hatred is the fault of the Christians in those churches, who rather then trying to help heal...have condemned, criticized, and made those inflicted with same sex attraction feel really sad, and hurt, and then bitter. If Christ was here today, he would be seen hanging out with Homosexuals, who he would have healed, and freed them from the worldly needs...like he did with prostitutes when he was last incarnate on earth.

There is one thing that you forget about this particular sin. It doesnt matter if the State legalize Homosexual Marriage or not...it doesnt matter if they force a GOD fearing priest to conduct the ceremony...for one VERY simple reason.

Neither the Church, Nor The State have the power to legitamize ANY Sacrement whatsoever. Mysterium Lunae...The Church does NOTHING more to GOD, then the Moon does to The Sun. The reason you see the Moon at night is because the Moon reflects the light of the Sun...the Moon has NO control over that...so it is with the Church...They can reflect the Glory of GOD...but they cannot create the Glory of GOD where His Light refuses to sign.

Without GOD, your "marriage" is just a ceremony. Its funny, how every good Christian hates the idea of homosexual marriage...but tell me...what are your thoughts on Athiests marrying in a Church? what of pagens? what of every other evil under the sun, that ALREADY marrys in churches?

There is nothing societal acceptance can do to threaten GOD. There is no point of Majority aggreement, at which GOD will change his mind on an issue of morality. You can not force a blessing from GOD, you can not "Create" a Union or a Sacrement...you can not Steal it from the Church by State Order, or by peer pressure.

Homosexual Marriage will never be legitamized by GOD in the same way that a Christian Hetrosexual Marriage is consecrated. No Ceremony will do. Its simply a placebo...the homosexuals who marrys in the church feels "accepted"

Well...he can "Feel" it all he wants...it doesnt mean GOD has fused the spirits of the two partners together.

Personally, I think its up to the individual to choose what they want to do. I havent decided if I believe you are "born" gay...but I do think that if you suffer from it, then the feelings are NOT a choice. However, practising is ALWAYS a Choice...you cant accidently have sex...and feeling like you want to, doesnt mean you must. I DO think the State should allow a way for homosexuals who wish to be next of kin, to settle the matter in a legal fashion. As GOD respects a persons freewill...so the State should also.

If the State can find a way of making homosexual marriage legal, in a way that doesnt force an unwilling church to participate, then I dont care if they make it legal or not...because it doesnt change the Truth.

I DO have a problem with the State FORCING a Church to do something against its will...and that is my primary concern here.

I would almost certainly never go for either. Because I dont need the Church or State to authorize any personal vows I might make to someone else, for a start. Secondly, I respect the fact that if I made that choice, it would be against what GOD wanted, and whilst I would be no less abiding to my promise as if it were sanctified...I would recognise that it could never be legitamately sanctified or consecrated...I would not want to tarnish any institution with being involved in such an abomination. We would know what we were doing, but it would be our sin alone...and only conducted, if to NOT follow through would lead to sin with worse repuccusions.

When all is Evil, sometimes you have to choose to live with the lesser of the two evils. We all live sinful lifestyles, and we all knowingly reproduce the same sins time and again. There is no point in not being honnest with the Almighty, because he is not fooled by your reasoning, that somehow, its perfectly alright to lead a secret sinful life of the mind, perhaps, but not to live a sinful life in the light...as if he would care less about your secrets, because they are hidden from the world. No, if ever I was to practise, if ever I was to get into a long term relationship...I know it could never be legitamized.

The really bizzare thing ive found with myself, is that, with those who I actually feel closest to, those other men that I truely love...the closer I get, the less likely, I want to have a sexual encounter with them...because I wouldnt want to tarnish them. I would not want to spoil them if that makes sence, I wouldnt want a sordid little secret kept between us :unsure-1: Thats something I dont think I could ever get over...I'm pretty sure, the more I loved them, the less chance there would be of anything but celebacy :laugh:

I would honnestly say that there are only two men in the entire world who I love...and even if they were both to come up to me and offer themselves...I just couldnt. I couldnt do that to them, and one of the two IS gay...although I didnt know for years and years and years :laugh:

Accidents are one thing...pre-planned long term with people you truely love, are something else...I personally think that a psychological and spiritual connection with someone is more pleasurable and far better then any physiological thing....and whats fantastic, is that close friends give that to each other anyway dont they :ashamed:

Neezar
06-17-2013, 06:02 PM
I think gay marriage is the least of our worries right now. :unsure:

County Mike
06-17-2013, 06:27 PM
The French are gay.

rearnakedchoke
06-26-2013, 06:09 PM
who knows what they are doing over in france .. but at least in the US, they have gotten it right for now!

http://us.cnn.com/2013/06/26/politics/scotus-same-sex-main/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Supreme Court rulings on same-sex marriage hailed as historic victory
(CNN) -- Gays and lesbians celebrated historic gains Wednesday in their fight against laws limiting same-sex marriages, saying Supreme Court rulings overturning the federal Defense of Marriage Act and rejecting the appeal of a California marriage ban represent a "joyous milestone."

But they acknowledged much work remains after the Supreme Court declined to make a sweeping statement on same-sex marriage rights by not ruling on the issues in California's Proposition 8 ban on same-sex marriages.

"Today's historic decisions put two giant cracks in the dark wall of discrimination that separates committed gay and lesbian couples from full equality," said Chad Griffin, president of the Human Rights Commission. He called the rulings "a joyous milestone."
"While we celebrate the victory for Californians today, tomorrow we turn our attention to the millions of LGBT people who don't feel the reach of these decisions," he said.

The court rulings, delivered in separate cases, mean that same-sex couples who marry in states where it's legal for them to do so will be treated the same as heterosexual married couples by the federal government when it comes to things like retirement benefits and taxes.

And while the ruling clears the way for same-sex marriages to resume in California, it will have no impact on bans in 35 other states where such marriages are illegal.

The mixed feelings about Wednesday's rulings extended to critics of efforts to extend marriage rights to gays and lesbians.

"We're disappointed in the short-term results and the short-term questions that remain unsettled, but the public conversation continues and that's a good thing," said the Rev. Rob Schenck, president of the Evangelical Church Alliance, which opposes same-sex marriage.

Tyburn
06-26-2013, 09:05 PM
who knows what they are doing over in france ..

Not even the French know :laugh:

NateR
06-27-2013, 03:23 AM
I think gay marriage is the least of our worries right now. :unsure:

Actually, this is going to be a gigantic blow against religious liberty in this country and freedom of religion is the cornerstone of EVERY other freedom. So once our freedom to publicly practice our religion and our freedom to follow our own conscience goes away, then all other freedoms will soon follow.

who knows what they are doing over in france .. but at least in the US, they have gotten it right for now!


We have absolutely NOT gotten it right.

GOD designed marriage to be between a man and a woman. So, it is not within the authority of any governing body or person to change that definition in any way. So gay marriage cannot possibly be right. End of story.

It's just one more step away from GOD and takes our nation closer to judgement and destruction. So how can you possibly claim to be a Christian but be ignorant enough to believe that this is the right direction for our country to be heading?

rearnakedchoke
06-27-2013, 02:03 PM
Actually, this is going to be a gigantic blow against religious liberty in this country and freedom of religion is the cornerstone of EVERY other freedom. So once our freedom to publicly practice our religion and our freedom to follow our own conscience goes away, then all other freedoms will soon follow.



We have absolutely NOT gotten it right.

GOD designed marriage to be between a man and a woman. So, it is not within the authority of any governing body or person to change that definition in any way. So gay marriage cannot possibly be right. End of story.

It's just one more step away from GOD and takes our nation closer to judgement and destruction. So how can you possibly claim to be a Christian but be ignorant enough to believe that this is the right direction for our country to be heading?

like i said ... marriage in a church may be a religious activity, but marriage in general is not .. do you think a marriage performed in a mosque is a marriage recognized by God??? or in the court, or in the drive thru at vegas by an elvis impersonator??

teh gays are fighting for their right to have their unions recognized by the US govt, not God (i am sure that time will come, and it will be up to the churches to fight that battle) once it is recognized by the govt, they are free to fight for marriage nenefits, adoption rights etc ... i say this was a great day for their rights to be recognized by their govt!

NateR
06-27-2013, 11:02 PM
like i said ... marriage in a church may be a religious activity, but marriage in general is not .. do you think a marriage performed in a mosque is a marriage recognized by God??? or in the court, or in the drive thru at vegas by an elvis impersonator??

teh gays are fighting for their right to have their unions recognized by the US govt, not God (i am sure that time will come, and it will be up to the churches to fight that battle) once it is recognized by the govt, they are free to fight for marriage nenefits, adoption rights etc ... i say this was a great day for their rights to be recognized by their govt!

I'm amazed at how little you know about this. GOD created marriage long before GOD created the Church and He never created "religion." That is a human construct. So there is no such thing as a marriage that GOD doesn't take a personal interest in. Even if the husband and wife are unbelievers, they are still entering a life-long pact with GOD that can NEVER be dissolved in the eyes of GOD. So, married Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, etc. will all stand before GOD one day and answer for their marriage and how they treated their spouse. This is why every known culture on the planet has a form of marriage, no matter what their religious beliefs.

GOD doesn't separate marriages into two categories, secular and religious, there is just marriage. A union that He created and blessed above all other earthly human relationships.

Also, this will most definitely turn into an attack on the Church in America, since the government will try to force the acceptance of gay marriages onto churches and the IRS will be there to punish churches who speak out against it with Gestapo-like efficiency. The forced acceptance of gay marriage will lead to the destruction of thousands of churches across our country as they find their tax-exempt statuses revoked and their leaders arrested for preaching the Biblical truth about homosexuality.

Defending the true-definition of marriage as GOD intended it, has nothing to do with secular vs. religious culture. If we want to maintain our freedom of religion, then we need to fight against gay marriage at every turn.

Of course, it's going to happen, because Satan is relentless and the gay marriage debate is just the latest in a long series of Satanic attacks on the true followers of GOD. So, churches will be punished for not complying and pastors, deacons, church members, etc. will be jailed for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality and it will be the beginning of the end of America as a free nation.

Bonnie
06-28-2013, 05:32 AM
I'm amazed at how little you know about this. GOD created marriage long before GOD created the Church and He never created "religion." That is a human construct. So there is no such thing as a marriage that GOD doesn't take a personal interest in. Even if the husband and wife are unbelievers, they are still entering a life-long pact with GOD that can NEVER be dissolved in the eyes of GOD. So, married Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, etc. will all stand before GOD one day and answer for their marriage and how they treated their spouse. This is why every known culture on the planet has a form of marriage, no matter what their religious beliefs.

GOD doesn't separate marriages into two categories, secular and religious, there is just marriage. A union that He created and blessed above all other earthly human relationships.

Also, this will most definitely turn into an attack on the Church in America, since the government will try to force the acceptance of gay marriages onto churches and the IRS will be there to punish churches who speak out against it with Gestapo-like efficiency. The forced acceptance of gay marriage will lead to the destruction of thousands of churches across our country as they find their tax-exempt statuses revoked and their leaders arrested for preaching the Biblical truth about homosexuality.

Defending the true-definition of marriage as GOD intended it, has nothing to do with secular vs. religious culture. If we want to maintain our freedom of religion, then we need to fight against gay marriage at every turn.

Of course, it's going to happen, because Satan is relentless and the gay marriage debate is just the latest in a long series of Satanic attacks on the true followers of GOD. So, churches will be punished for not complying and pastors, deacons, church members, etc. will be jailed for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality and it will be the beginning of the end of America as a free nation.

I think you are right, Nathan. Satan is having a grand time...we make it so easy for him. :sad:

flo
06-28-2013, 10:40 PM
I'm amazed at how little you know about this. GOD created marriage long before GOD created the Church and He never created "religion." That is a human construct. So there is no such thing as a marriage that GOD doesn't take a personal interest in. Even if the husband and wife are unbelievers, they are still entering a life-long pact with GOD that can NEVER be dissolved in the eyes of GOD. So, married Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, etc. will all stand before GOD one day and answer for their marriage and how they treated their spouse. This is why every known culture on the planet has a form of marriage, no matter what their religious beliefs.

GOD doesn't separate marriages into two categories, secular and religious, there is just marriage. A union that He created and blessed above all other earthly human relationships.

Also, this will most definitely turn into an attack on the Church in America, since the government will try to force the acceptance of gay marriages onto churches and the IRS will be there to punish churches who speak out against it with Gestapo-like efficiency. The forced acceptance of gay marriage will lead to the destruction of thousands of churches across our country as they find their tax-exempt statuses revoked and their leaders arrested for preaching the Biblical truth about homosexuality.

Defending the true-definition of marriage as GOD intended it, has nothing to do with secular vs. religious culture. If we want to maintain our freedom of religion, then we need to fight against gay marriage at every turn.

Of course, it's going to happen, because Satan is relentless and the gay marriage debate is just the latest in a long series of Satanic attacks on the true followers of GOD. So, churches will be punished for not complying and pastors, deacons, church members, etc. will be jailed for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality and it will be the beginning of the end of America as a free nation.
Excellent post, very well said, Nate. Thank you.

Tyburn
06-29-2013, 03:09 PM
1) Even if the husband and wife are unbelievers, they are still entering a life-long pact with GOD that can NEVER be dissolved in the eyes of GOD.

2) This is why every known culture on the planet has a form of marriage, no matter what their religious beliefs.

3) GOD doesn't separate marriages into two categories, secular and religious, there is just marriage. A union that He created and blessed above all other earthly human relationships.



1) That is not correct. GOD wont blindly attach his name to things that he doesnt want to be connected to. They may enter a life long pact with each other...but GOD is extremely choosey in who he attaches his Name to Nathan, and I dont think he would sanctify a Marriage that was not done before him, automatically, just because they are male and female.

The reason for this is because the concept of marriage is supposed to mirror the concept of the Church as Bride of Christ...AND of the relationships BETWEEN members of the Trinity. Mariage IS NOT a pact to spend ones life together Semper Fidelis, it is FAR more then that. The man and woman are joined, spiritually, as the Man was first bonded with his Mother as a Child.

Its about becoming two sides of the same person, and the same spirit, just as The GODhead is.

That is NOT something that can be possible in a secular or heathen marriage.

2) No, the reason every culture has the concept of marriage is due to Reproduction and continuation of their culture. It has nothing to do with being judged by any diety whatsoever. The best and most prolific way of reproduction, is a committed family of a man and a woman, who can then generate offspring, and nurture them.

Sorry, but even very basic animals have the concept of pairing off, creating their own home, mating, producing babies, and then rearing...I saw for the first time this afternoon, a Father Finch TEACH his Daughter to feed for herself, when she begged for food and her Mother wouldnt feed her. He picked a big bit of oat off the flight floor in his beak...took it up to the sill where she was perched and put it down infront of her...he then consumed half the oat and urged her to do the same...once she realized she could use her beak to peck and chop and carry...well...she was pecking EVERYTHING :laugh:

3) Absolutely, which is why you can not assume that GOD will sanctify ANY union except those of believers. Whilst I reckon that he does sanctify some other Unions...I wouldnt dare claim it as factual...that would be like claiming that non Christians get to heaven. Its not good enough to be a human being who is judged on his life, any more then its good enough to be an athiest male and female being judged on their union. Belief in Christ, and ONLY that Saves, and ONLY GOD can Sanctify something permantly without a complex ritual that must be repeated gazillion times at a constant rate of perfection.

As the Jews tried that and failed (ergo the rituals of the Temple) I think you find that all Unions without GOD are simply a human promise, one to another. A marriage is way beyond that.

NateR
06-30-2013, 06:40 PM
1) That is not correct. GOD wont blindly attach his name to things that he doesnt want to be connected to. They may enter a life long pact with each other...but GOD is extremely choosey in who he attaches his Name to Nathan, and I dont think he would sanctify a Marriage that was not done before him, automatically, just because they are male and female.

The reason for this is because the concept of marriage is supposed to mirror the concept of the Church as Bride of Christ...AND of the relationships BETWEEN members of the Trinity. Mariage IS NOT a pact to spend ones life together Semper Fidelis, it is FAR more then that. The man and woman are joined, spiritually, as the Man was first bonded with his Mother as a Child.

Its about becoming two sides of the same person, and the same spirit, just as The GODhead is.

That is NOT something that can be possible in a secular or heathen marriage.

2) No, the reason every culture has the concept of marriage is due to Reproduction and continuation of their culture. It has nothing to do with being judged by any diety whatsoever. The best and most prolific way of reproduction, is a committed family of a man and a woman, who can then generate offspring, and nurture them.

Sorry, but even very basic animals have the concept of pairing off, creating their own home, mating, producing babies, and then rearing...I saw for the first time this afternoon, a Father Finch TEACH his Daughter to feed for herself, when she begged for food and her Mother wouldnt feed her. He picked a big bit of oat off the flight floor in his beak...took it up to the sill where she was perched and put it down infront of her...he then consumed half the oat and urged her to do the same...once she realized she could use her beak to peck and chop and carry...well...she was pecking EVERYTHING :laugh:

3) Absolutely, which is why you can not assume that GOD will sanctify ANY union except those of believers. Whilst I reckon that he does sanctify some other Unions...I wouldnt dare claim it as factual...that would be like claiming that non Christians get to heaven. Its not good enough to be a human being who is judged on his life, any more then its good enough to be an athiest male and female being judged on their union. Belief in Christ, and ONLY that Saves, and ONLY GOD can Sanctify something permantly without a complex ritual that must be repeated gazillion times at a constant rate of perfection.

As the Jews tried that and failed (ergo the rituals of the Temple) I think you find that all Unions without GOD are simply a human promise, one to another. A marriage is way beyond that.

GOD created all the animals on Earth, then GOD created Adam and Eve who every human on Earth is descended from. Immediately after creating Eve, GOD created marriage. This is why marriage exists throughout all of GOD's creation regardless of religion or culture.

Sure, there are animals that mate for life, but I wouldn't necessarily consider those to be marriages.

Tyburn
06-30-2013, 08:52 PM
GOD created all the animals on Earth, then GOD created Adam and Eve who every human on Earth is descended from. Immediately after creating Eve, GOD created marriage. This is why marriage exists throughout all of GOD's creation regardless of religion or culture.

Sure, there are animals that mate for life, but I wouldn't necessarily consider those to be marriages.

All of Creation was originally designed perfect before the Fall....Incase you hadnt noticed...Creation was spoilt.

Now ALL creation is doomed without the aid of Christ....and you think GOD takes notice of a Union, symbolic of His Love for His People....and think it applies to other faiths...or no faiths at all??

The point your missing is...those other marriages may aswell be the same as animal unions...Marriage, as I pointed out...is NOT just to provide a shelter and safe surround for Union...it is NOT just a promise made between two people...it is NOT Justified, Consecrated, Blessed, or Sanctified by a Church Ceremony.

Its a Fundemental part of my theology. The Church has ZERO control over Sacrements, and ONLY GOD can bestow a sacrement...Marriage is a Sacrement....If you say that GOD bestows that gift on people of other faiths and no faiths...who live a sinful lifestyle because they dont believe...but say that GOD Refuses to bestow it on homosexuals....the question I have for you is...Why?

BOTH live sinful lifestyles...and all sin is equal in the eyes of GOD.

The fact that a man and a woman can procreate actually leads them to MORE sin...for not only have they married without GODs blessing...they then procreate outside of wedlock!! At least Homosexuals that marry will never by guilty of THAT sin :laugh:

What this boils down to...is one rule for one, another rule for another. Because non christians can procreate...YOU dont mind them marrying, and turn such a blind eye to the sin of them who marry without being saved, that everything is fine.....but Homosexuals marrying...Well GOD just hates them.

News for you Nate...GOD hates the heathen just as much.

If its wrong for Gays, its wrong for Heathen...if its right for the heathen....well... :wink::laugh:

NateR
07-01-2013, 06:09 AM
All of Creation was originally designed perfect before the Fall....Incase you hadnt noticed...Creation was spoilt.

Now ALL creation is doomed without the aid of Christ....and you think GOD takes notice of a Union, symbolic of His Love for His People....and think it applies to other faiths...or no faiths at all??

The point your missing is...those other marriages may aswell be the same as animal unions...Marriage, as I pointed out...is NOT just to provide a shelter and safe surround for Union...it is NOT just a promise made between two people...it is NOT Justified, Consecrated, Blessed, or Sanctified by a Church Ceremony.

Its a Fundemental part of my theology. The Church has ZERO control over Sacrements, and ONLY GOD can bestow a sacrement...Marriage is a Sacrement....If you say that GOD bestows that gift on people of other faiths and no faiths...who live a sinful lifestyle because they dont believe...but say that GOD Refuses to bestow it on homosexuals....the question I have for you is...Why?

BOTH live sinful lifestyles...and all sin is equal in the eyes of GOD.

The fact that a man and a woman can procreate actually leads them to MORE sin...for not only have they married without GODs blessing...they then procreate outside of wedlock!! At least Homosexuals that marry will never by guilty of THAT sin :laugh:

What this boils down to...is one rule for one, another rule for another. Because non christians can procreate...YOU dont mind them marrying, and turn such a blind eye to the sin of them who marry without being saved, that everything is fine.....but Homosexuals marrying...Well GOD just hates them.

News for you Nate...GOD hates the heathen just as much.

If its wrong for Gays, its wrong for Heathen...if its right for the heathen....well... :wink::laugh:

Where do you get this idea that GOD hates the heathen? We were all born sinners and, while we were completely unredeemable enemies of GOD, He still sacrificed His only Son to give us a chance at salvation. Not because we were in any way lovable or because we deserved it, but because of His love for us.

The level of love that GOD showed to us, even though He had every reason to hate us and condemn us to an eternity of torture and suffering, is beyond our human ability to comprehend. So exactly where are you getting this idea that GOD hates sinners? If GOD hated sinners, then Christ would never have bothered to die on the cross.

Either way, I'm not saying that GOD blesses marriages between non-believers, but He will hold those people accountable for their marriage. So, if nothing else, non-believing married couples are simply giving GOD more rope to hang them with.

Why would GOD refuse to bestow marriage on homosexuals? Because marriage was designed by GOD as a shadow of things to come. Just like the Jews didn't have the authority to rewrite the rituals of the Temple sacrifices, we don't have the authority to rewrite marriage. If GOD considers the sin of homosexuality to be worthy of death, then why would He honor a "marriage" between homosexuals? That doesn't even make sense. It's like claiming that GOD has to honor a "marriage" between a man and a pig just because humanity had degraded itself to the point where that kind of sexual relationship is acceptable in society's eyes.

If we, sinful, corrupted humans, can "outvote" GOD on matters of morality, then where does that line get drawn? We're just going to keep sinking into lower and lower forms of depravity, because Satan is not going to say, "Okay that's far enough, people. I don't want you to take this sin thing too far." No, his goal is the total destruction of every single person and the more we wallow in our own filth and declare it an "alternative lifestyle", the happier he is.

Tyburn
07-01-2013, 04:15 PM
Why would GOD refuse to bestow marriage on homosexuals? Because marriage was designed by GOD as a shadow of things to come.

That is precisely why he wouldnt bestow it on heathen unions either.

NIETHER reflect the correct design.

ANY SIN if worthy of Death...thats the WHOLE point of Christs saving power.

But whilst its easy for you to point and prod the homosexual...I DONT see you doing the same for the heathen...You say that Homosexual marriage would be the end of religious freedom...your churches ALREADY MARRY HEATHEN...somehow that doesnt seem to bother you....you dont piss and moan about that, you dont rebuke the heathen.

From the point of view of someone who suffers from temptations towards the sins you most be-wail...it is REALLY frustrating, and terribly unfair, that you cant be arsed to show the same type of venhemance towards others who live sinful lifestyle no worse, and no better.

Its not just you Nathan...this is common across christendom, and the reason is simple...the sheer numbers of heathen make it impossible for you to speak out against them, and you have become so used to them living in your midst you turn a blind eye because its a hetrosexual union...Homosexuals are a smaller group of people...whose union would be so fundementally different...that whilst NO MORE SINFUL...its a lot more obvious.

The way round this is of course to go back to basics and remember that only humans view sins in degrees of immorality, and then recall that from the Divine point of view...you're either perfect...or you're not....and cast that back on yourself, to put yourself in the same bracket as those that you rebuke...and know that if it wasnt for Saving Grcae of Christ...you would face the same doom.

Tyburn
07-01-2013, 07:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJdPI27gZPg

There is a very well known hymn, based on a literny chant I think, that brings to mind What the sacrement of marriage is based upon. I know it as "Jerusalem et Sion Filiae" But if you've ever heard of the hymn its probably called "Zions Daughters, Sons of Jerusalem"

In its closing verses it describes really well how the Church as Fides Sponsa so to speak is rewarded. This is what Marriage is supposed to symbolize...The Union of Christ and The Church.

So the Church shines forth on her pilgrimage,
signed with Jordan's waters of penitence,
drawn to hear the wisdom of Solomon,
from the world's end.

"So, foretold by figures and prophecies,
clothed in nuptial vesture of charity,
joined with Christ, o'er heaven's glad citizens
now she reigneth.

"Welcome! feast of light and felicity,
Bride to Bridegroom joining in unity;
in her mystic marriage is typified
our salvation."

Christ, whose joys we joyfully celebrate,
grant us all a place with thy chosen ones,
true delights, ineffable happiness,
rest eternal.

NateR
07-02-2013, 02:01 AM
Isn't it kind of ironic how it's two unmarried guys that seem to have the most to say about marriage? :laugh:

I'll have to do some more research on this, but I definitely don't believe that GOD ignores marriages between non-believers.

If what you are saying were correct, Dave, then that would create some major questions about sin. Because, if marriage is the only approved relationship where sexual intercourse can exist, then is a married man guilty of fornication every time he has sex with his wife? And can a married unbeliever actually commit adultery?

County Mike
07-02-2013, 01:42 PM
Let the gays marry.

Why should they get to be happy?

rearnakedchoke
07-02-2013, 05:03 PM
i am slowly changing my mind .. maybe not totally changing it .. but realizing the whole gay agenda thing .... making sense to me ...

Bonnie
07-02-2013, 06:10 PM
Let the gays marry.

Why should they get to be happy?

:laugh:

You make a good point! :laugh:

Bonnie
07-02-2013, 06:13 PM
i am slowly changing my mind .. maybe not totally changing it .. but realizing the whole gay agenda thing .... making sense to me ...

Please explain...what do you mean? :)

Tyburn
07-02-2013, 06:39 PM
Isn't it kind of ironic how it's two unmarried guys that seem to have the most to say about marriage? :laugh:

I'll have to do some more research on this, but I definitely don't believe that GOD ignores marriages between non-believers.

1) If what you are saying were correct, Dave, then that would create some major questions about sin. Because, if marriage is the only approved relationship where sexual intercourse can exist, then is a married man guilty of fornication every time he has sex with his wife?

2) And can a married unbeliever actually commit adultery?

1) well essentially yes, because the Wedding isnt Sanctified it doesnt truely exist on the Spiritual Level...therefore, it would be the same type of sin as Cohabitating Sexual partners

2) I believe so because Adultory at its heart is based on lust...and whilst a heathen marriage may not be sanctified, its still the word and promise of the individual...therefore, they can still be unfaithful to that promise.

But I admit that would boil down to pragmatics I suppose. :laugh:

The other side of the argument of course would simply be to say that any long-term loving relationship, even homosexual...would be better then constant promiscuity...It depends how far you believe the spirit of the law differs from the letter of it. :blink:

The other thing to recall is that marriage is not an eternal union. The concept of Union with GOD is eternal, but marriage, however sacred, is just a reflection of that on earth. One is freed from the sanctity of marriage on the death of their spouse

Its ultimately very difficult...but, personally, in regards to homosexuals...I just dont understand why with the option of civil unions...what the justification is in pushing for marriage. Equality in law I think can be obtained in a civil union, in regards to next of kin, and simply make what you want legally binding in your will if its not. Marriage seems like its being done deliberately to upset Christians...and THATS what abhores me about the whole ideal...It feels like its being done out of spite, and not equality at all....and why would any person who claims to be hard done by the oppression of another, then want to do something to inflict that one someone else??

NateR
07-03-2013, 03:39 AM
i am slowly changing my mind .. maybe not totally changing it .. but realizing the whole gay agenda thing .... making sense to me ...

I'm sure that many gay couples just want to get married and live their lives out peacefully. However, all it will take is a few activist couples who decide to use their marriage as a political tool to permanently damage individual churches.

I could see an activist gay couple targetting a high-profile church, like Rick Warren's Saddleback Church, and requesting to have their marriage ceremony in that church's sanctuary in the hopes that the church will say no. Then they can sue the church and get that church's tax exempt status revoked, effectively forcing the church to close its doors permanently.

rearnakedchoke
07-04-2013, 04:24 PM
Please explain...what do you mean? :)

ok .. so what i am mostly talking about is the political agenda ... all political parties are guilty of this, but what really stood out about this was a day or two after the passing of the law allowing gay marriage, the law was changed that allow spouses of same sex couple who weren't american to apply for visas to work in america, thus increasing immigration. (ok, so i may not have it exactly right, but it was pretty close, but i am sure someone can better explain this)

so, to me, the dems were so gung ho in getting gay marriage legalized, because it had other implications (getting more potential voters for their party) ..

but that is just one part .. LOL

rearnakedchoke
07-17-2013, 05:42 PM
Passed in England!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/16/britain-same-sex-marriage-legalized/2522911/